Who here is enlightened?

[apophenia]

I think it's true to say that all we experience is our own mind, but it would not necessarily to be accurate to say that all that exists is our own mind, objectively. .

Agreed. What I was getting at is that whether or not the 'objective world' exists as we assume it does, the experience of " I am that" is certainly true from the point of view that all our perceptions are actually our brain.

Of course, some will say that the brain is just an idea in 'the mind', and any evidence that a brain ( or universe) exists is necessarily circular. Not a very useful position though. It can't be either confirmed or refuted, but it leads nowhere, and we still eat breathe crap and die, even if it is just imaginary ! So it is irrelevant IMO.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There are those that propose they can remove their observation from their body (out of body experience). Or those that propose that they can experience oneness/unity/transcendence with all things.

Depending on whether they can actually acquire non-local information or not is a differentiator between what kind of experience it actually is. If they have a subjective sense of oneness but are entirely limited to knowledge that only their body would have, then this is a very different thing from the concept of a being that is able to experience oneness and attain omniscience or specific non-local information.

That's why it's worth sorting out precisely what proposals people are making.

Ok, so let's ask some pertinent questions..

What is it that is being removed from the body?
What is it that decides to remove whatever it is that is removed from the body?
What is the relationship between what leaves the body and the body?
What is the relationship between the body ego self consciousness and out of body consciousness?

 

[apophenia]

Depending on whether they can actually acquire non-local information or not is a differentiator between what kind of experience it actually is. If they have a subjective sense of oneness but are entirely limited to knowledge that only their body would have, then this is a very different thing from the concept of a being that is able to experience oneness and attain omniscience or specific non-local information.

I mentioned earlier, and in other threads, some experiences of mine where I have accessed specific non-local information, and where others have responded to states I have been in. Also I have had the experience of a friend spontaneously 'astral travelling' to my location, and providing me with exact and correct details about where I was in my room (alone) , what I was doing at the time, and also providing a very accurate drawing of the layout of the room, a place she had never been to nor had I ever described it to her. We were both shocked by the experience . I was playing an instrument in my room ( in a nurse's dormitory ) and invoking her presence at the time, ( I was a young man, infatuated ...) and she was at home in bed preparing for sleep when the experience happened. At the time I felt her presence, but put it down to my own emotional attachment. But she rang me at work the next morning, blown away, told me what had happened,and said she had a drawing of the room, which I viewed later that day. It was extremely accurate and detailed.

I really don't have any idea how that works. It even annoys the crap out of me sometimes, because there it is, and I have no handle on it, nor any beliefs about it, yet I have been given very unambiguous objective evidence that it is indeed possible for non-local information to be accessible in very mysterious ways.

Despite my general skepticism about such things, I would be lying to myself to deny these experiences ( there are others just as compelling ). I would prefer to write them off as personal delusions, because that would be a nice neat explanation. But the evidence was overwhelming and entirely unambiguous, on this and other occasions.

 

[Penumbra]

Ok, so let's ask some pertinent questions..

What is it that is being removed from the body?
What is it that decides to remove whatever it is that is removed from the body?
What is the relationship between what leaves the body and the body?
What is the relationship between the body ego self consciousness and out of body consciousness?

You're asking the wrong person.

I'm not one that proposes that non-local knowledge occurs.

 

[Penumbra]

I mentioned earlier, and in other threads, some experiences of mine where I have accessed specific non-local information, and where others have responded to states I have been in. Also I have had the experience of a friend spontaneously 'astral travelling' to my location, and providing me with exact and correct details about where I was in my room (alone) , what I was doing at the time, and also providing a very accurate drawing of the layout of the room, a place she had never been to nor had I ever described it to her. We were both shocked by the experience . I was playing an instrument in my room ( in a nurse's dormitory ) and invoking her presence at the time, ( I was a young man, infatuated ...) and she was at home in bed preparing for sleep when the experience happened. At the time I felt her presence, but put it down to my own emotional attachment. But she rang me at work the next morning, blown away, told me what had happened,and said she had a drawing of the room, which I viewed later that day. It was extremely accurate and detailed.

I really don't have any idea how that works. It even annoys the crap out of me sometimes, because there it is, and I have no handle on it, nor any beliefs about it, yet I have been given very unambiguous objective evidence that it is indeed possible for non-local information to be accessible in very mysterious ways.

Despite my general skepticism about such things, I would be lying to myself to deny these experiences ( there are others just as compelling ). I would prefer to write them off as personal delusions, because that would be a nice neat explanation. But the evidence was overwhelming and entirely unambiguous, on this and other occasions.

This sounds like it would be fairly strong evidence for you to believe it.

For me to believe it, I'd generally have to either see so many controlled cases where it's an established scientific understanding that it occurs, or I'd have to experience it myself. I've invited numerous people in different websites or in real life to demonstrate their abilities of acquiring non-local knowledge to me, but none of have taken me up on that offer.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You're asking the wrong person.

I'm not one that proposes that non-local knowledge occurs.

Ok then, for those who say they have had out of body experiences, any of you care to answer these questions,...

What is it that leaves the body?
What is the relationship between what leaves the body and the body?
What is the relationship between the body ego self consciousness and out of body consciousness?
What is the relationship between what leaves the body and the larger cosmic environment?

 

[apophenia]

This sounds like it would be fairly strong evidence for you to believe it.

For me to believe it, I'd generally have to either see so many controlled cases where it's an established scientific understanding that it occurs, or I'd have to experience it myself. I've invited numerous people in different websites or in real life to demonstrate their abilities of acquiring non-local knowledge to me, but none of have taken me up on that offer.

I would not expect you to believe it. I wouldn't believe it either if I was you.

I realise there is no reason whatsoever for you to believe it. I have tried to find ways to explain it which are just some state of mind I was in, but the fact is I cannot, because I have been shown the evidence, and it came from someone else, and was clear-cut. I have seriously felt stressed by the fact that I know it happened but cannot prove it. I cannot replicate it, because it was not intentional. I have no philosophy or belief which requires it to be true.

I make no claims that this is an 'ability'. I fully expect my testimony to be ignored, or taken as evidence that I am either psychotic, prone to flights of imagination, or merely lying.

For those reasons I rarely ever mention such things, and why I say it annoys the crap out of me. But there it is. It is wierd feeling that I must not mention things which are real events in my life, so occasionally I refer to it because pretending it didn't happen is just BS. Only I ( and those who have shared such experiences with me) know I am not making **** up.

 

[savagewind]

It is not a currently known fact that there are people whose minds can read others. There's emotional intelligence, but actual direct knowledge of another person's thoughts is not currently something with a large degree of documented peer reviewed research. In fact, anyone who has the ability to read minds can easily win $1 million from the James Randi Educational Foundation; it's the prize they've been offering for proof of supernatural abilities for quite a while now.

I don't really see how intelligence and mind reading are related either.

The purpose of asking people how we are united has to do with various proposals of 'oneness' that are common from mystics, Hindus, New Age practitioners, and to a lesser extent, some Buddhists.

In my observation, in most matters of life people have a habit of exaggeration or using poetic language rather than directly descriptive language. Saying that we are all 'one' is a pretty major and broad proposal. Asking questions about specifically what they mean is useful. One in what way? What links exist?

Some people, when they say they experience oneness or cosmic unity or similar concepts, really mean that there is monism in the universe. Other people instead mean that they experienced the interconnectedness of all things, but interconnectedness between parts is different from literal monism.

So clarifying the proposals of people is useful.

Oh sorry. I did not say reading minds is possible. I said there are minds that can read other people's personality. They can read microexpressions. They can discern a lot from a little information. It's intelligence, not special power. I just brought it up as an alternate explanation of the experience of a so-called enlightened experience.

If I had describe life as either interconnected or monistic I'd say monistic, but I do not know. If it is monistic it would explain the rule "love your neighbor as yourself" Mark 12:31. And it might also explain what the flaming blade of the sword is guarding. Genesis 3:24

 

[Penumbra]

Oh sorry. I did not say reading minds is possible. I said there are minds that can read other people's personality. They can read microexpressions. They can discern a lot from a little information. It's intelligence, not special power. I just brought it up as an alternate explanation of the experience of a so-called enlightened experience.

If I had describe life as either interconnected or monistic I'd say monistic, but I do not know. If it is monistic it would explain the rule "love your neighbor as yourself" Mark 12:31. And it might also explain what the flaming blade of the sword is guarding. Genesis 3:24

Emotional intelligence and social awareness are indeed valuable skills.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I make no claims that this is an 'ability'. I fully expect my testimony to be ignored, or taken as evidence that I am either psychotic, prone to flights of imagination, or merely lying.

Not ignored, the experience occurred, but what was it that left your body?

Try answering my questions above?

 

[apophenia]

Oh sorry. I did not say reading minds is possible. I said there are minds that can read other people's personality. They can read microexpressions. They can discern a lot from a little information. It's intelligence, not special power. I just brought it up as an alternate explanation of the experience of a so-called enlightened experience.

On that subject - if you pay very close attention, you will notice that your vocal chords reflect the discursive thoughts you are having.

To get a clear idea of how real and involuntary this is, try chanting a mantra ( or any phrase) in your mind, and observe what happens if you tighten your vocal chords in such a way as to inhibit this action, and your breath. I find that it virtually shuts down the inner voice. Only with seriously focused effort can I maintain inner silent speech with my vocal chords disabled, and it feels very unnatural.

I mention this because it occurred to me that perhaps some 'mind reading' is possible because the unconscious involuntary use of the vocal chords modulates the breath, and is probably at least subliminally audible as a very soft whisper.

 

[apophenia]

Not ignored, the experience occurred, but what was it that left your body?

Try answering my questions above?

I can't.

I have no idea if anything 'left the body'. It could be some kind of event which quantum physics may someday explain.

For example, so far there is no biological explanation of why neurons in different parts of the brain, with no direct connection, act in concert when some behaviours are taking place. I can't give you details about that, but LegionOnomaMoi can.

I've given up the idea that I can explain anything.

Stuff happens. Science can explain a lot, but not all of it, at this point in time.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I can't.

I have no idea if anything 'left the body'. It could be some kind of event which quantum physics may someday explain.

For example, so far there is no biological explanation of why neurons in different parts of the brain, with no direct connection, act in concert when some behaviours are taking place. I can't give you details about that, but LegionOnomaMoi can.

I've given up the idea that I can explain anything.

Stuff happens. Science can explain a lot, but not all of it, at this point in time.

Yeh, the quantum vaccuum and the ubiquitous zpe vibrating at wavelengths down to and probably less than Planck length is what, imho, the concept of spirit is meant to convey...

 

[apophenia]

Yeh, the quantum vaccuum and the ubiquitous zpe vibrating at wavelengths down to and probably less than Planck length is what, imho, the concept of spirit is meant to convey...

Whatever we may learn, I'm certain that what people call 'spiritual' and what we call 'physical' are ultimately one and the same reality.

The older I get, the less I assume I understand, but the idea that there is a physical world and a spiritual world sounds like bunk to me.

And I know from experience that science does not yet have a clue about some fundamental aspects of reality. But that doesn't mean anything is 'supernatural', only that there is plenty to learn - although we may not learn it. I can accept that.

I don't believe that science will necessarily explain everything. Nor mysticism, which is really ( at best ) just a language about aspects of reality which are still occult (hidden) as far as current science goes.

 

[atanu]

Ok then, for those who say they have had out of body experiences, any of you care to answer these questions,...

What is it that leaves the body?

There is a knot (may be made of imagination alone) that ties the awareness to a form. When that knot opens painlessly, it is good. Else, it is death.

It is like air within a cup believing it to be the cup.

Or it is like superimposition of heat on an iron ball. It may seem that heat is property of iron ball and also that the heat is of solid nature.

 

[s2a]

I wrote a few posts back that there are at least two general takes on 'enlightenment' (both valid IMO, but often which one is meant is not defined).

You interpret the word in the sense of socially valuable moral wisdom, or something like that.

Others mean a condition of being which resolves the self-other dichotomy and the ambivalence and cognitive dissonance attendant to that.

Still others mean a total extinguishing of ego (if that is possible).

There are probably other takes on it too.

No personal offense intended, but yours is so much amorphous gobbledegook BS.

Say something with a tad less nuance, ok?

 

[s2a]

There is a big degree of variance for what sort of experiences people are invited to share here and call it by different names, but what you describe is not really what the thread is about.

Indeed. Perhaps you might have mitigated the "degrees of variance" by being a bit more specific in lending direction towards the "correct" or applicable answers you seek?

Just fer nothin', what does the "Age of Enlightenment" signify or define within your own understanding of the terminology?

 

[apophenia]

No personal offense intended, but yours is so much amorphous gobbledegook BS.

Say something with a tad less nuance, ok?

Try reading books, and if that is too challenging, you can listen to audiobooks and follow along.

Just don't give up entirely, and remember, dictionaries are not nearly so frightening as they look.

If that still leaves you feeling so non-plussed as to feel aggressive, forget about forums and attend bingo nights.

Find your own level.

and btw .." no personal offense intended" and "amorphous gobbledegook BS" don't belong in the same sentence - unless you actually intend to give the impression of having no integrity, in which case it works really well.

And Happy New Year ! I hope your mood improves heaps in 2013 !

 

[s2a]

Like GFY ?

Or ... try reading books, and if that is too challenging, you can listen to audiobooks and follow along.

Just don't give up entirely, and remember, dictionaries are not nearly so frightening as they look.

If that still leaves you feeling so non-plussed as to feel aggressive, forget about forums and attend bingo nights.

Find your own level.

I'll allow your lovely ignorance to manifest itself within the time you may partake at you own leisure to actually lend your personal commentary upon my insights posted here over many years now (after reading same : if you are ignorant as how to do so, I'll be pleased to lend you more informed direction).

[PS. FYI..."nonplussed" is not hyphenated, compliments of this unread and retired English teacher. Oh, and the GFY? Well, ain't the real thing a bit more interesting then the mental masturbation you seem to enjoy indulging?]

oh and, Happy New Year

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There is a knot (may be made of imagination alone) that ties the awareness to a form. When that knot opens painlessly, it is good. Else, it is death.

It is like air within a cup believing it to be the cup.

Or it is like superimposition of heat on an iron ball. It may seem that heat is property of iron ball and also that the heat is of solid nature.

Nice..it can also be likened to the breath of life that has fulfilled its purpose and is exhaled again.
The incarnate spirit imbued with the self awareness developed through mortal life maya perception of separation from it source, re-merges with Cosmic Self awareness.
The proverbial genie and the bottle.
etc....

Point is, the ego self is an artifact of mortal life, it isn't spirit, nor will it ever be enlightened or leave the body. However the essential experiences of the incarnate soul may undergo a synthesis/transmutation which allows reunion with the original source,...this is the concept of spiritual ascension.