dear penumbra ,
happy new year :namaste
Yes I'm generally talking about "big guns" here.
what you imply is what I had assumed ,
however "big guns" they are not , they are fully realised beings , generaly the most simple and humble beings on earth .
more like they are no guns
who if asked would I very much doubt ever claim to be fully enlightened .
If Warren Buffett (listed as 2008 as the richest man in the world, still in the top 5) hypothetically gave all his money away and was broke, but he accurately described to me his full story and proposed that he give me some investing lessons, I'll listen. Because he became a billionaire investor and in this scenario, he gave it all away, which doesn't affect the fact that he accumulated it through a particular skill in the first place. In other words, he became rich through a specific method and is thus qualified to teach that method.
"if" you were talking to , ....... but you are not ,
you are asking people here whom are no more than words upon a page , we none of us know in truth who the other is or what their true acheivements are , so , .... in my humblest opinion , ... we need to listen very carefully to what each is saying ,
and to judge each on the merits of their speach , this way we will benifit much by learning , by the use of our own discriminationg wisdom .
what however will be benifited by asking me directly .....are you identifying as enlightened ?
I may be a deluded fool and reply yes ....,
I may play with you , ....
then you will want to hear some proof ! .....and I will send you climbing up a gum tree
but still you will have to use some descriminating wisdom , because you will want to know if the proof stands up !
If, on the other hand, someone merely reads a book about Warren Buffett and begins teaching people about how to become rich like Warren Buffett, then their words should be taken in a different context. They may know a thing or two, but they didn't actually do it.
So when these two different people are describing it, it's useful to know who actually did it and who didn't.
I understand your analogy ,
but here you are talking about material accheivements , in which case there is something material by which to judge ,
Another way of putting it, with a real example, is that I've trained under a few martial arts instructors. Two of them were capable of fighting at the professional level, and the others were not. The others taught me the same basic moves as the professionals, and it would be subtle to tell the difference. In fact, the video clip that Luis posted earlier from the movie Goodwill Hunting would be applicable here; you have to be pretty good at the content to even tell the difference between the two pros and the others. And yet, under the pros, I improved three times as quickly. It was the difference between night and day. The magic is in the details.
here you are talking about physical acheivements through physical and mental training , in which case there are also atainments to be judged .
Plus, this thread is more focused on learning about people than it is focus on learning about enlightenment.
I beg your pardon , I foolishly followed this thread, out of interest as to how different people would describe not only their experience but also what was to be said of enlightenment it self .
I also followed it because it said .......
Does anyone on this forum claim to be enlightened? If so, please post here so we can talk. I'd like to see who here claims to have reached enlightenment.
any sane being might admit to areas of , or partial enlightenment , but to profess full enlightenment ? .......... you have got to be kidding !
to be fair in the early stages a few knowing persons commented that an enlightened person was hardly likely to openly say so of them selves !
The reason I ask is, many people talk about what enlightenment is, how to get there, what it's like, that it is a true concept, etc.
these people are talking of the concept as read and understood through partial experience , and comenting on that which feel they can identify with .
when what is read and taught confers with ones experience , one verifies the other , but still we are talking about partial enlightenment ,
So if you consider yourself enlightened, I invite you to post here. Perhaps you could start by explaining what enlightenment is to you, how you achieved it, how you know you achieved it, and what it is like.
I can explain areas of partial enlightenment as might many , but I am not going to " Identify as ......"
in ways even were I to describe an element of enlightened or realised being it would not be understood by any other than one with the same experience .
however it can be more fully explained by telling you what it is not , .....that way a being may be led to his own realisation by process of ilimination ,
this we tend to do naturaly by hitting our heads in a brick wall untill we realise for our selves that this is not the solution , however this may take countless lifetimes ! some one guiding you simply shortens the process , but if one is constantly looking for proof and wont examine advice without it , that explains the amount of fraudsters and delusional monsters there are out there at this moment !
