Who here is enlightened?

[NIX]

I don't like the term 'enlightenment', it's vague, and sort of meaningless.

So many people, so many meanings (and meaninglesses).

 

[apophenia]

Interesting but still confirming my negative opinion of Buddhist philosophy that glorifies a single brain state as being superior over the normal range of human brain activity

From experience ( having studied with both Theravadin and Tibetan buddhist teachers ) I have to say that this is not a correct interpretation of buddhism.

Especially, it is anathema to the Tibetan view espoused by all the lamas I ever listened to. It is also considered to be an error by the Theravadin teachers I have sat with, and as Crossfire has pointed out, is also considered an error by Zen teachers.

You may be quite correct in describing an error common to many practitioners however, particularly the DIY variety who base their view on books and hearsay without actually relating with buddhist teachers.

Of course, their are also bound to be some self-appointed 'teachers' who make that same error, but not within the long-established traditions.

Find out for yourself. Talk about this with a lama for example. They will no doubt inform you that what you are describing is considered to be a fundamental error.

 

[Desert Snake]

Find out for yourself. Talk about this with a lama for example. They will no doubt inform you that what you are describing is considered to be a fundamental error.

i'm not sure what he's describing

 

[Sunstone]

Well, what can I say? I'm prejudiced in favor of my Christian path and wouldn't be on it if I thought there was any other valid way to spiritual truth.

You seem to be looking for "spiritual truth". But what is "truth" to you? What does that mean?

 

[apophenia]

i'm not sure what he's describing

Honestly, I think he's describing the error he wants buddhism to have.

Whenever you see the expression 'the only way', you can be certain that everything else must be seen to have errors, even without any examination whatsoever.

'onlywayism' ... it's a syndrome. even buddhists can suffer from it , especially if they are fixated on what meditation is 'supposed to be'.

 

[Desert Snake]

Honestly, I think he's describing the error he wants buddhism to have.

Whenever you see the expression 'the only way', you can be certain that everything else must be seen to have errors, even without any examination whatsoever.

'onlywayism' ... it's a syndrome. even buddhists can suffer from it , especially if they are fixated on what meditation is 'supposed to be'.

I think you're right

 

[InChrist]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:5

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” John 8:12

 

[Sunstone]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:5

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” John 8:12

So, what does "enlightenment" mean to you?

 

[skinker]

From experience ( having studied with both Theravadin and Tibetan buddhist teachers ) I have to say that this is not a correct interpretation of buddhism.

Especially, it is anathema to the Tibetan view espoused by all the lamas I ever listened to. It is also considered to be an error by the Theravadin teachers I have sat with, and as Crossfire has pointed out, is also considered an error by Zen teachers.

You may be quite correct in describing an error common to many practitioners however, particularly the DIY variety who base their view on books and hearsay without actually relating with buddhist teachers.

Of course, their are also bound to be some self-appointed 'teachers' who make that same error, but not within the long-established traditions.

Find out for yourself. Talk about this with a lama for example. They will no doubt inform you that what you are describing is considered to be a fundamental error.

You're seriously suggesting that I talk to the most prejudiced persons in favor of the philosophy I find fatally flawed to "correct" the errors of my conclusions not based at all on their ideologies or opinions of themselves or other Buddhists but on brain research findings. That's all I need to see the Fatal Flaw: it shows in the brain scans and in the failure of Buddhism to circumvent normal human emotions, pulling only a comparatively few into the intense Buddhist discipline it takes to get control of the brain and shut down the sense of self center. But they all aim for it and it to me it's a waste of time and energy except like Yoga philosophy became yoga classes helping millions exercise in a most healthy manner without any need for Hindu philosophy really, Buddhism too will become a mind relaxation technique as the philosophy dies with science discovery of its one-trick pony brain manipulation foundation. The "Void" is nothing more than the literal hole in the head, the empty non-active space in the brain being projected outward as if the whole world followed the Buddhist "Buddha Mind" single brain state.

 

[crossfire]

Interesting but still confirming my negative opinion of Buddhist philosophy that glorifies a single brain state as being superior over the normal range of human brain activity including emotional attachments. It makes zero sense to me to aim for a single brain state when dealing with complex reality takes as many differing brain states of consciousness as can be effective to the situations encountered in normal human community life. The physical symptoms of the brain's sense of self center being disabled are apparent in the difficulty of maintaining a "walking" "enlightenment" state of mind. That's why one sees the 1000's of sitting, lying down, sleepy eyed Buddha statues, again idolizing a single brain state. To me spending so much time in meditation using various chants and drone sounds can only dull the mind eventually and one see's in nations where Buddhism is the dominate religion, a cultural and technological backwardness. Japan, always militaristicly organized to win and copying Western technology, the exception to the rule. But even here one sees how Buddhists can mesmerize themselves into false beliefs and actions following them, e.g. the Zen Samarai employed by feudal warlords.

I really have to disagree, especially in the light of impermanence being a major Buddhist teaching. Furthermore, there are 4 major classes of jhana, and several subclasses within those. (None of which are idolized, btw.) There are also several different medatative techniques for specific purposes. I can see no way that this constitutes idolizing a single state of brain activity.

You might make an argument for liberation to be an ideal state, but that does not constitute any one single state of brain activity.

 

[crossfire]

You're seriously suggesting that I talk to the most prejudiced persons in favor of the philosophy I find fatally flawed to "correct" the errors of my conclusions not based at all on their ideologies or opinions of themselves or other Buddhists but on brain research findings. That's all I need to see the Fatal Flaw: it shows in the brain scans and in the failure of Buddhism to circumvent normal human emotions, pulling only a comparatively few into the intense Buddhist discipline it takes to get control of the brain and shut down the sense of self center.

Buddhism teaches that human emotions are impermanent and will pass away, hence there is no need to circumvent them. In fact, it is best to observe them rising and falling, in order to gain insight into the workings of your mind, and make adjustments to your strategy of transforming your mind. It is not about a mere avoidance of symptoms and symptom management--it is about transformation and healing.

 

[NIX]

Buddhism teaches that human emotions are impermanent and will pass away, hence there is no need to circumvent them. In fact, it is best to observe them rising and falling, in order to gain insight into the workings of your mind, and make adjustments to your strategy of transforming your mind. It is not about a mere avoidance of symptoms and symptom management--it is about transformation and healing.

This is also very chaos magic.

 

[crossfire]

This is also very chaos magic.

I've noticed a lot of parallels.

 

[apophenia]

You're seriously suggesting that I talk to the most prejudiced persons in favor of the philosophy I find fatally flawed to "correct" the errors of my conclusions not based at all on their ideologies or opinions of themselves or other Buddhists but on brain research findings. That's all I need to see the Fatal Flaw: it shows in the brain scans and in the failure of Buddhism to circumvent normal human emotions, pulling only a comparatively few into the intense Buddhist discipline it takes to get control of the brain and shut down the sense of self center. But they all aim for it and it to me it's a waste of time and energy except like Yoga philosophy became yoga classes helping millions exercise in a most healthy manner without any need for Hindu philosophy really, Buddhism too will become a mind relaxation technique as the philosophy dies with science discovery of its one-trick pony brain manipulation foundation. The "Void" is nothing more than the literal hole in the head, the empty non-active space in the brain being projected outward as if the whole world followed the Buddhist "Buddha Mind" single brain state.

Your understanding of buddhist theory and practice is totally flawed.

You are making outrageous generalisations based on nothing but your wrong preconceptions. I am right here, talking to you on these forums, with decades of background in meditation and a wealth of experience of direct communication with teachers of various traditions, so are you going to say that I am not a reliable source of information because I am 'prejudiced' ? That is pretty water-tight aversion and avoidance you have going on if that is the case.

Where did you get the idea that budhhists aim to remain in 'the void' ?

What the hell is 'the void' ? Where, and how, does Gautama recommend that people enter this 'void' ?

Can you provide any teachings from Gautama which support your position ?

Do you actually have any basis for your view ?

In fact, please tell me where you obtained your 'education' about buddhism. I'm guessing maybe a cursory glance at some Wikipedia articles, and conversations with people who claim some knowledge of buddhism but have not actually studied with teachers and practiced accordingly, and rumors and uninformed opinions propagated by other 'only way' christians. Oh yeah ... and some 'brain research' (unspecified).

I suggested that you check out the validity of your misconstrued view with a lama, and you ridicule the idea ! Clearly, you have a vested interest in not discovering that your view of buddhism is woefully wrong, both in theory and practice.

"The "Void" is nothing more than the literal hole in the head, the empty non-active space in the brain being projected outward as if the whole world followed the Buddhist "Buddha Mind" single brain state."

??? You are fabricating. How is this buddhism ?

You have never seriously read the teachings of buddha have you ? Have you ever talked to anyone practicing Dzogchen or Mahamudra with a teacher ? Or a zenji ?

Are you aware that of all the recorded teachings of Gautama, there are only a few pages which even mention meditation ? Do you have any idea what the rest of it talks about ?

What is the basis of your idea that the aim of buddhism is to " get control of the brain and shut down the sense of self " ?

Is that because you went no further than hearing chinese whispers which began as the mistranslation of anatta as 'no self' ?

Do you know what tantra is, and if so, how do you reconcile it with this notion of 'a single brain state' ?

And importantly - what "brain research findings " ?

Since you say these 'findings' are the entire basis of your opinions, perhaps you might like to explain what these brain research findings are - who conducted them, what was their methodology, what conclusions did they reach ?

A reference or link would be good ...

 

[crossfire]

A reference or link would be good ...

I don't think s/he has enough posts yet in order to be able to post a link.

 

[apophenia]

I don't think he has enough posts yet in order to be able to post a link.

That doesn't prevent copy and paste of the url.

I just clicked on my address bar, and with a control-C and a control-V, voila ...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3196358

Can't click on it, but I can copy it into my address bar, no problem. (well, it seems you can click on this one, but even if you couldn't, it can still be copied and pasted into the address bar)

Anyway, I think he has 15 posts now. That's the requirement isn't it ? I'm not clued up about that, but I seem to remember it's 15.

 

[Sunstone]

Anyway, I think he has 15 posts now. That's the requirement isn't it ? I'm not clued up about that, but I seem to remember it's 15.

I recall it's fifteen, too.

 

[Sunstone]

Alan Watts used to say something along the lines of, "It's easy to think you are enlightened...until your relatives visit you."

 

[atanu]

Alan Watts used to say something along the lines of, "It's easy to think you are enlightened...until your relatives visit you."

ha ha. I agree. There is a word in sanskrit "swatantra", which means free, and it is synonymous with moksha.

 

[apophenia]

Originally Posted by Sunstone
Alan Watts used to say something along the lines of, "It's easy to think you are enlightened...until your relatives visit you."

ha ha. I agree. There is a word in sanskrit "swatantra", which means free, and it is synonymous with moksha.

And I think that it is in Srimad Bhagavatam where it says that your family are like a pack of jackals ! Or maybe that was just Prabhupad's commentary