Who here is enlightened?

[Penumbra]

*Post Removed*

This is relevant to the discussion and I'll probably comment on it in a separate post, but it's worth pointing out to all thread participants that there must be caution about rule 6. Talking about substances that can provide certain experiences is acceptable, but specifically discussing involvement in or promoting any illegal activities including illegal substances can result in a rule 6 violation and I'd prefer that no thread participants end up with such a violation in a thread due to my question.

The key is how things are phrased, basically.

it happened after I undertook sustained exploration of the psychedelic state of consciousness, coupled with intellectual study of perennial philosophy. This culminated in a traumatic experience of ego death, in which my whole sense of separate egoic identity dissolved into cosmic unity, followed by a miraculous rebirth back into my egoic identity. After I recovered from the trauma, I was enlightened. The ego death experience was characterized by sheer terror and suffering of 'dying' as a separate individual, and also the sheer beauty of discovering my timeless unity with God.

I recommend the following essay which provides a very lucid description of the buildup of terror in a bad trip 'ego death' experience: www.egodeath.com/mysticclimax.htm

I read the link.

So you're currently enlightened?

When your ego died and was reborn, what would you say is the achievement after that? In what way was the latter ego different from the former ego?

When you say you experienced cosmic unity and are currently united with god, what specific characteristics does this imply? Are you currently united with me? Or are we separate?

 

[Penumbra]

dear penumbra ji

we all have levels of realisation , your question implies the full and ireversable state of realisation .

Yes I'm generally talking about "big guns" here.

yes the status of the mesanger is important but that should be judged by the quality of the message .

if you are assuming riches to be material wealth , ....and you are thinking that a poor man has little experience in the gaining of such wealth , where as the rich man has full experience , and on this assumption you would follow the rich mans word , then you may be folowing the word of a theif and a brigand !

we are talking here about true wealth , fully enlightened knowledge , in which case we are looking for external signs of enlightenment ? .......in this case , examine the actions and and demeanor of the mesenger , but more importantly examine the message it self .

yes , and who is to say it was gained by fair means ! apperances may be deceptive !
but to be fair yours is simply an analogy and all analogies fall down at some point .

however the poor man may give you a diccourse on the true meaning of wealth , he may be poor because he has allways shared his riches .

If Warren Buffett (listed as 2008 as the richest man in the world, still in the top 5) hypothetically gave all his money away and was broke, but he accurately described to me his full story and proposed that he give me some investing lessons, I'll listen. Because he became a billionaire investor and in this scenario, he gave it all away, which doesn't affect the fact that he accumulated it through a particular skill in the first place. In other words, he became rich through a specific method and is thus qualified to teach that method.

If, on the other hand, someone merely reads a book about Warren Buffett and begins teaching people about how to become rich like Warren Buffett, then their words should be taken in a different context. They may know a thing or two, but they didn't actually do it.

So when these two different people are describing it, it's useful to know who actually did it and who didn't.

Another way of putting it, with a real example, is that I've trained under a few martial arts instructors. Two of them were capable of fighting at the professional level, and the others were not. The others taught me the same basic moves as the professionals, and it would be subtle to tell the difference. In fact, the video clip that Luis posted earlier from the movie Goodwill Hunting would be applicable here; you have to be pretty good at the content to even tell the difference between the two pros and the others. And yet, under the pros, I improved three times as quickly. It was the difference between night and day. The magic is in the details.

Plus, this thread is more focused on learning about people than it is focus on learning about enlightenment.

 

[Penumbra]

Hi Penumbra,

Have you heard the famous quote, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"?

Basically it means if you think you have a correct notion of what it means to be enlightened, then you need to throw out (kill) that image and keep meditating/praying/contemplating, etc.

"Tao that cannot be named is not the eternal Tao". (So you think you see the real Tao, kill it and move on.)

Yes, I'm familiar with the quote. It's interpreted a number of ways, like don't focus on a specific thing in your mind as enlightenment, and/or don't worship Buddha as a god because it's the path that's important rather than the person.

 

[Penumbra]

Of course: everyday experience.

Edit: All these terms refer in their own way to reality, the same ordinary reality that's around us everyday and that we experience. What the words defer to is a perspective on reality, which equates to a way of looking at and living it, that (in the West we might say) 'knows it' in a particular way. The moment of understanding in that particular way is also referred to as enlightenment, and having that moment isn't the end (or goal) of such moments.

Would you say you experienced reality in that particular way?

 

[Penumbra]

Maybe you can. I don't know about everyone, but all of the people I personally know who have sought enlightenment through drugs just ended up self-centered and narcissistic. I have no idea why.

Do you think it's possibly due to having not 'earned' it?

Like the difference between a person who has little natural talent but works excessively hard to get an 'A' in a class compared to a naturally gifted individual that breezes through with an 'A'? Same content, different method?

If one method involves rigorous study, meditation, and contemplation on ethics, philosophy, and practice, and the other one involves simply taking a substance, I can certainly see how it's possible that the experience could be the same but the effects and personality changes are different.

Happy New Years!

You too Phil!

It seems to me that most of your ten thousand posts have been interesting and informative.

Or just cranky and blunt!

Possibly the same thing, once in a while.

 

[skinker]

Possibly for a few seconds here and there.

Most people don't. Most people have short bursts of liberation from their habitual state accompanied or followed by insights into their habitual state.

Following that, most people immediately come down, and have some memory of that event, which is already being filtered through, and modified by, their re-eemergent habitual state. Then they construct a mystical paradigm based on those reworked memories, and often become quite convinced that this new mental model they have built,based on their memory of that experience, is enlightenment.

This can become a very intractable imitation or role-play of 'enlightenment', which is actually a fabrication.

So I have observed many times over many years.

Hey again! That sounds like me except I didn't get "short bursts of liberation from my habitual state, I got long ones and the insights have never stopped coming into my life on and off periodically since the first one 33 years ago.

And guess what? Oh, you'll all love this: One of the major enlightenment revelations I got spells doom for all Eastern religions based on chasing enlightenment starting with Buddhist philosophy. It's the End Times of Buddhist philosophy which I'm sure will be instantly welcomed here as enlightenment. Well, God led me to discover Buddhism's Fatal Flaw which is the same Fatal Flaw that exposes all Eastern religions with their goals of "enlightenment" as frauds, false doctrines attempting to glorify a single brain state as the "highest" one when in fact it is merely an organic method of manipulating one's brain to avoid psychic pain and get high.

 

[Penumbra]

Happy 10000th ! Happy New Year 1

( Be careful posting if you've been drinking . Or not. In vino veritas ! )

Yeah, I optimized it:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ballmer_peak.png

 

[skinker]

Don't meditate while driving tonight or any night for that matter. Happy New Year!

 

[Penumbra]

Don't meditate while driving tonight or any night for that matter. Happy New Year!

Happy new year to you as well good sir or ma'am, and welcome to the forum.

I agree, no DUE (driving under enlightenment).

 

[Sunstone]

Do you think it's possibly due to having not 'earned' it?

Like the difference between a person who has little natural talent but works excessively hard to get an 'A' in a class compared to a naturally gifted individual that breezes through with an 'A'? Same content, different method?

If one method involves rigorous study, meditation, and contemplation on ethics, philosophy, and practice, and the other one involves simply taking a substance, I can certainly see how it's possible that the experience could be the same but the effects and personality changes are different.

I really don't know, Lyn. Maybe the most likely explanation for what I have noticed is that the handful of people I've known who have sought enlightenment through drugs has not been representative of the whole. So, maybe there are many people who have sought enlightenment through drugs and not become self-centered and narcissistic, and I just don't know any.

As for the notion of earning enlightenment, I am not sure enlightenment can be earned. I'm more inclined to suppose that many of us would like it to be something that can be earned -- because if it can be earned then we ourselves in some sense control it (and controlling things is something the ego desires greatly). But I do not myself believe that enlightenment can be earned no matter how hard or how long we practice this or that technique to earn it.

Instead, I think of enlightenment as something like a breeze. It arises of its own accord, independent of our will. We can do nothing to make it come about. All we can do is make sure the "windows" are open so that, if and when it does indeed come about, it can enter us. And that is the entire legitimate purpose of any technique to bring about enlightenment -- not really to bring about enlightenment, but to keep the windows open so that enlightenment, if it comes, is not thwarted.

At least that's how I understand it. Naturally, I could be wrong.

 

[Penumbra]

Ahhh, now that really IS a great question. My answer will surely separate me from the pack - with no doubt. Originally I perceived this Oneness as being that of a, forgive the term, "universal soul or entity - shared by all" ... however, I've come a rather long way since then. Now I don't see it quite that way and this is an extension of my expanded view of personality. I mean, I am ONE with the totality of my self, period, full stop. I call that "totality" the entity or inner self or personality energy essence - take your pick.

Based on similar conundrums that you assert, I began to see that this "universal" wasn't quite what it appeared at first. It is merely, imho, a novices viewpoint (to view the entity as belonging to ALL.) It is an individual entity existing in a realm of countless others, like itself. So, I am ONE with my "source self" as you are with your own "source self"; however that "source self" is not a communal self shared by all.

It is via the "source self", the "inner self", that one begins to glimpse ones myriad of existences, all happening in their own "present". It is this very myriad of innumerable existences that gives the illusion of being "universal". It IS, in the sense that this "local" source self, is a universe UNTO ITSELF. I hope you get the difference.

If I'm interpreting correctly, what you're saying here is that your worldview does not include oneness of the universe between individuals. Rather, you're saying that your various constituent parts were united into a seamless whole, or essence. And your essence is separate and distinct from other essences.

Actually, as you might recall, you have helped me to enunciate this in the past. No, you are not a part of me. I am not a part of you. Personality lines I envision are so large that it is somewhat dizzying. My use of the expression, "civilization of the psyche" is alluding to this expanded view of personality.

I know, i get that a lot too. I can be very serious, but then something usually tweaks my humor centres and my brain is off and running. I guess all I am saying is that Creaturehood is intended to be rooted in reality NOT divorced from it. You don't have to give up anything (except maybe the concept of limitations) to embrace Creaturehood. You are already a part of the process and a charming part, at that. In the words of Laurie Anderson... "Paradise is like where you are, right now, only much... Much... Better..."

In some ways, Creaturehood is a spiritual extension of humanism.

I agree. I wish I could tell you all the things inside my head... but that would spoil a lot of your personal adventure. I hope I have elucidated my sense of Oneness more fully. It is NOT what most other human animals are saying... the thing is, I recognize I could be quite wrong and mistaken... though I don't believe that for a second... the doubt helps me to explore the ramifications.

As to the bliss. Now that is a hard one to wrap your head around. Most people simply cannot imagine what it is like. Oddly, I don't find much humor in modern "comedy", certainly not in recent years. That is just so contrived nowadays. Bliss is a perennial thing that is always bubbling up, just under the surface. I guess I just like to smile and make other people smile. It helps them to feel good and that can also give them a different perspective.
[youtube]9pJOHnE08hY[/youtube]
Laurie Anderson - Language Is A Virus

Just replace the word "paradise" with "creaturehood". :drool:

Well, one does have to try...

You previously said that death is just a changing of focus under your worldview. You did specify that you could be mistaken (and I wrangled that admission out of you once before ), but it's worth asking anyway:

When you experience what you experience, what leads you to make proposals about death? Are your views towards death theories, or in some way do you propose to verify and know what will occur?

 

[apophenia]

Hey again! That sounds like me except I didn't get "short bursts of liberation from my habitual state, I got long ones and the insights have never stopped coming into my life on and off periodically since the first one 33 years ago.

And guess what? Oh, you'll all love this: One of the major enlightenment revelations I got spells doom for all Eastern religions based on chasing enlightenment starting with Buddhist philosophy. It's the End Times of Buddhist philosophy which I'm sure will be instantly welcomed here as enlightenment. Well, God led me to discover Buddhism's Fatal Flaw which is the same Fatal Flaw that exposes all Eastern religions with their goals of "enlightenment" as frauds, false doctrines attempting to glorify a single brain state as the "highest" one when in fact it is merely an organic method of manipulating one's brain to avoid psychic pain and get high.

I think the 'fatal flaw' you are defining was something Gautama was well aware of. I think you are maybe referring to a very common error of meditators, and assuming that their error is the buddha's teaching.

There is one text which refers to a time when the Buddha pointed out to the rishis that the experience of 'empty space-like mind' is not ultimate, or the goal of meditation, but merely a 'state'. On hearing this, one of the rishis got so distressed he died of a heart attack ! LOL.

Also - you'll never know whether or not you would have had those insights over 33 years anyway. How can you be sure the psychedelic is responsible for all of that ? Perhaps the psychedelic just made you more aware of the activity of insight, which is usually brewing below the surface ..

And also - I did say 'most people'. There are different types of people in that regard.

If I was to guess, based on observation, I would say that the majority of trippers are just wasting good drugs. I have seen thousands of people tripping over the last 40 years ( since my teenage). Most of them just have a crazy, manic and enjoyable time characterised by laughing at their own folly and the folly of humanity in general, interspersed with moments of atypical introspection and/or absorption in perceptual phenomena of various kinds, and then they come down and carry on in the same way they always did. If they're lucky. A few lose it badly.

And a very few have deep, lasting expansion of awareness. But they may well be people who would have developed deep, lasting expansion of awareness anyway.

Anyway ... what can you tell us about the most valuable insights you have had ? What exactly have you realised which is of great value, and for which psychedelia is responsible ?

Serious question.

 

[Sunstone]

I've noticed that it is very similar to a process which meditators go through also. It's just more dramatic and obvious when psychedelics are involved.

That's quite interesting.

...the day-to-day ego is not a problem to be overcome, or a temporary stage to outgrow, either. It's just the way we are.

Agreed. I sometimes think that a kind of "hands on" understanding of the ego results in the closest anyone might come to "overcoming" it.

 

[skinker]

I think the 'fatal flaw' you are defining was something Gautama was well aware of. I think you are maybe referring to a very common error of meditators, and assuming that their error is the buddha's teaching.

There is one text which refers to a time when the Buddha pointed out to the rishis that the experience of 'empty space-like mind' is not ultimate, or the goal of meditation, but merely a 'state'. On hearing this, one of the rishis got so distressed he died of a heart attack ! LOL.

Also - you'll never know whether or not you would have had those insights over 33 years anyway. How can you be sure the psychedelic is responsible for all of that ? Perhaps the psychedelic just made you more aware of the activity of insight, which is usually brewing below the surface ..

And also - I did say 'most people'. There are different types of people in that regard.

If I was to guess, based on observation, I would say that the majority of trippers are just wasting good drugs. I have seen thousands of people tripping over the last 40 years ( since my teenage). Most of them just have a crazy, manic and enjoyable time characterised by laughing at their own folly and the folly of humanity in general, interspersed with moments of atypical introspection and/or absorption in perceptual phenomena of various kinds, and then they come down and carry on in the same way they always did. If they're lucky. A few lose it badly.

And a very few have deep, lasting expansion of awareness. But they may well be people who would have developed deep, lasting expansion of awareness anyway.

Anyway ... what can you tell us about the most valuable insights you have had ? What exactly have you realised which is of great value, and for which psychedelia is responsible ?

Serious question.

If I told you, I'd have to..

..risk being banned. Also, I need to get 15 posts under my belt before I can post links to my stuff online where you can see and read what I'm talking about. I can tell you here that while I am a full veteran of the Psychedelic '60's and have experimented with many mind-altering substances thanks to being guinea pigs of one our gang's being a chemistry student concocting every psycho-active drug he could get formulas for. But I was always a sensitive type and actually even though I've done a lot of different kinds of drugs I never did them very much, e.g. I couldn't handle a full dose of LSD and I stopped doing the strong psychedelics altogether by the '70's. I never stopped using marijuana except for three breaks in my 48 years of using this drug which I consider my religious sacrament, it has amply demonstrated its valuable use as a spiritual reception enhancement tool. And btw, those of you prejudiced against marijuana thinking it cripples the brain I would like you to follow my posts for demonstrating that doesn't happen to people who start using marijuana as adults.

But what I've learned spiritually is not dependent on chemical awareness at all. I've taken holidays from my drug of choice at times and know that I can get along just fine without--except the spiritual visions decrease as does every aspect of my creative life and enjoyment of life. Take pot away from me and 75% of my creative thinking goes away also--and my spiritual visions decrease likewise. So for me, pot is more than recreational or even medicinal, it is the primary tool of my spiritual life as a religious visionary which puts me into the shaman category, a modern Gnostic Christian one who uses marijuana to achieve a spiritually receptive state of mind.

 

[apophenia]

If I told you, I'd have to..

..risk being banned. Also, I need to get 15 posts under my belt before I can post links to my stuff online where you can see and read what I'm talking about. I can tell you here that while I am a full veteran of the Psychedelic '60's and have experimented with many mind-altering substances thanks to being guinea pigs of one our gang's being a chemistry student concocting every psycho-active drug he could get formulas for. But I was always a sensitive type and actually even though I've done a lot of different kinds of drugs I never did them very much, e.g. I couldn't handle a full dose of LSD and I stopped doing the strong psychedelics altogether by the '70's. I never stopped using marijuana except for three breaks in my 48 years of using this drug which I consider my religious sacrament, it has amply demonstrated its valuable use as a spiritual reception enhancement tool. And btw, those of you prejudiced against marijuana thinking it cripples the brain I would like you to follow my posts for demonstrating that doesn't happen to people who start using marijuana as adults.

But what I've learned spiritually is not dependent on chemical awareness at all. I've taken holidays from my drug of choice at times and know that I can get along just fine without--except the spiritual visions decrease as does every aspect of my creative life and enjoyment of life. Take pot away from me and 75% of my creative thinking goes away also--and my spiritual visions decrease likewise. So for me, pot is more than recreational or even medicinal, it is the primary tool of my spiritual life as a religious visionary which puts me into the shaman category, a modern Gnostic Christian one who uses marijuana to achieve a spiritually receptive state of mind.

Yeah well, I wish I had more friends who knew how to see bees.

I think I should stop encouraging you to say much, rule 6 and all. You don't live in the Bay area do you ? Shulginoid ?

But here's a tip - I've started using noopept, and if you haven't already, check it out. Legal, cheap. Buy yourself a kilo from China before the FDA do their insidious work, or the HORRIBLE Leahy bill passes ( if it's still on the table ). That should last you and your circle of family and friends a long time at 10 -20 mg per day.

It is touted as being the best of the nootropics ( aniracetam has been my fave up til now ). Not startling or mindbending like psychedelia, but a great cognitive enhancer. But the main thing I like about it is that it produces that warm smile behind the eyeballs which marijuana users enjoy so much. And the amiable self-appreciation too, like you are good friendly company to yourself. In other words, much of what people like about marijuana - but without bending your head. Sort of like a good slightly euphoric phenethylamine stimulant, but with zero body load and no tendency to get manic. And a great potentiator Also neuroprotective against oxidative stress, and apparently good to treat/prevent Alzheimers. Among lots of other good qualities.

Noopept plus piracetam with maybe a touch of CNS stim ( guarana would do, maybe even tyrosine) is a very lucid, verbally eloquent, and insightful state. Starts to work after a few days to a week. No abuse potential, or loss of sleep. Only works if swallowed. Let me know what you think if you try it.

 

[crossfire]

And guess what? Oh, you'll all love this: One of the major enlightenment revelations I got spells doom for all Eastern religions based on chasing enlightenment starting with Buddhist philosophy. It's the End Times of Buddhist philosophy which I'm sure will be instantly welcomed here as enlightenment. Well, God led me to discover Buddhism's Fatal Flaw which is the same Fatal Flaw that exposes all Eastern religions with their goals of "enlightenment" as frauds, false doctrines attempting to glorify a single brain state as the "highest" one when in fact it is merely an organic method of manipulating one's brain to avoid psychic pain and get high.

I think the 'fatal flaw' you are defining was something Gautama was well aware of. I think you are maybe referring to a very common error of meditators, and assuming that their error is the buddha's teaching.

There is one text which refers to a time when the Buddha pointed out to the rishis that the experience of 'empty space-like mind' is not ultimate, or the goal of meditation, but merely a 'state'. On hearing this, one of the rishis got so distressed he died of a heart attack ! LOL.

Zen calls this state of error Makyo

 

[apophenia]

Zen calls this state of error Makyo

Good link.

 

[Sunstone]

Zen calls this state of error Makyo

Good link.

I've been told makyo also refers to experiences, such as clairvoyance, that serve as distractions from enlightenment. That is, by clinging to and even identifying with such experiences, one hinders or prevents enlightenment.

 

[s2a]

(Serious question.)

Use whatever word is applicable in your worldview, be it enlightenment, moksha, nibbana, one with the universe, etc. I'll use 'enlightenment' for the rest of this post but mentally substitute in your own word as you read it.

Does anyone on this forum claim to be enlightened? If so, please post here so we can talk. I'd like to see who here claims to have reached enlightenment.

The reason I ask is, many people talk about what enlightenment is, how to get there, what it's like, that it is a true concept, etc.

So if you consider yourself enlightened, I invite you to post here. Perhaps you could start by explaining what enlightenment is to you, how you achieved it, how you know you achieved it, and what it is like.

I read a lot, and understand well much of what I read.

I may fairly deem myself as "more enlightened" that those that do not, or might otherwise exist within their own self-imposed seclusion and isolation from "enlightening" ideas, concepts, or compelling evidences that may challenge entrenched beliefs, dogma, or faith-based claims...

Select a specified topic, and perhaps we may then debate the contestable merits of any presnted premise as an exampled and "enlightened" perspective, beyond promotion of just some ideological meme/testimonial/manifesto....

Fair enough?

 

[crossfire]

I've been told makyo also refers to experiences, such as clairvoyance, that serve as distractions from enlightenment. That is, by clinging to and even identifying with such experiences, one hinders or prevents enlightenment.

Makyo can develop from clinging to anything, imo. As Jesus said, "keep on searching..." (Or keep going deeper into Terra Incognita) Once you stop searching and rest on your laurels, you run the risk of building a conceptual nest for makyo. (My two favorite reminders--Samsara is Nibbana, and Nibbana is beyond concepts.)