Who here is enlightened?

[maxfreakout]

I don't know if the state of epiphany can be sustained indefinitely. This is beyond (the scope of) my own experience/knowledge.

The intense altered state cannot be maintained indefinitely in normal people, it always inevitably gives way back to the ordinary (mundane, default) state. But the new understanding that is revealed to the mind by the experience of the altered state is retained indefinitely in full enlightenment. It's analagous to seeing a new colour that you have never seen before for the first time; even if the new colour is removed from your sight, you can still remember it afterwards. Also you can revisit the altered state, if you know how to trigger it.

 

[atanu]

----
Just for the record, the Tibetan view is that the 'goal' of practice ( sometimes called enlightenment ) is 'temel ge shepa' - meaning 'the ordinary mind of nowness'.

The teachings which are considered by lamas to be the essential, most profound teachings use the language of 'the natural mind' , the 'unfabricated mind'.

The 'extraordinary states' which some assume are enlightenment are simply considered to be just that - extraordinary states. -----

I wish to obtain some clarification since 'unfabricated mind' or 'extraordinary states' are both just words to me that I do not fully understand. By 'temel ge shepa', do we understand freedom from cycle of samsara?

Frankly speaking, I see many of Buddhistic orientation claiming to be enlightened. But Gita teaches that one in many millions attain the freedom from death.

In my view, it is true that the sahaja-natural state (unfabricated state should be the nearest translation) is the goal. Yet, to attain that, the awareness as distinct from the manifested forms and names must be experienced and recognised as the reality. And that is extraordinary. The recognition that the names and forms are also awareness comes then (this state is known as sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi). But sahaja does not happen before the unsullied awareness is experienced in kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. Gita teaches that what is night for a common man is day for the sage and vice-versa.

So, I really do not see easy enlightenment. That is not to doubt your state. Not at all. But only to suggest that most of us are seekers -- although I know that that term is wrong. Most of us are not beyond forgetfulness.

 

[NIX]

So you experienced it temporarily?

What were you doing when it occurred? Was it purely an enhancement of the senses as you described, or were there other characteristics such as new knowledge attained, etc?

I lived in that heightened sensory state for almost a full year. It gradually tapered off.
The first few days were the most profoundly intense (where I lost track of time entirely except for the rising and setting of the sun).

I had been dislodging my psyche for a number of months before from almost every previously held mindset and belief system I had limited my thinking by. (which basically meant everything).
Then that one magical and stormy night I cast off everything. Every last covering- every last protection and precaution --and I took the inner free fall- the leap into the spiral of the vast unknown. What I awoke to cannot be described. Through the rabbit hole and out into wonderland.....

So much new knowledge-- or better to say So much new insight (inner sight/inner vision). I am still sorting through it all nearly 10 years later.

Soon I will be completely dislodging from -- casting off the protection of -- letting go of- my physical world/surroundings. Out into the unknown again. Though it's not exactly the same thing, we'll see what (if anything) happens there.

The experience I'm speaking of seems to be propelled by some sudden, huge, and total leap, plunge, freefall- whatever into the unknown- with the open understanding- or open mindset- that anything, really, is possible. I guess people who tend to cling to probabilities, statistics and peer review need to put those things down (also) in order to take the ride as well. It's like getting on a roller coaster, you have to leave everything at the docking station and pick it up again when you get off the ride- if you find you still want it. There's plenty of time for sorting and resorting and recategorizing when you come down to dock again.

 

[idav]

Ok if I see that thread appear then I'll look to see if there's anything I can answer or add to it.

Here I'll just give an abridged answer.

-The free will statement was accepted.

-For new age stuff, I was raised with this cosmology. Because of that, I still view everything as Maya, a game with actors. Even from a different perspective of science and observation, the result of viewing it as Maya and a game appears valid but for different reasons.

-Meditation focusing on loving all beings, ranging from yourself to indifferents to enemies loosens feelings like guilt or anger. Out of the four reasons given, that's likely the least important for me, since I started that practice after already finding those feelings irrelevant and non-occurring. I did the practice specifically to address apathy rather than guilt or anger or other things.

-Stoicism is highly relevant to the question. It's about mastering one's emotions in the face of what cannot be controlled. In that sense it's a lot like Buddhism, but with emphasis on different things and a different cosmology.

Penumbra do you consider yourself enlightened? You sound it cause many people spend a lifetime trying to master their emotions.

 

[RogerTheAtheist]

I don't really know what it means to be enlightened, but after learning basic astronomy I've never been able to look at clear night sky without being completely amazed.

 

[NIX]

People define and apply their own words and make and find their own meaning/s (according to their own thinking and experience).

Words are not the things that they stand (in) for. They are merely pointers.
Usually they point to who we are (as individuals) and how we think (about things) more than anything else. The territory is not the map any more than the map is the territory.

 

[DanielR]

Can I get enlightened too through certain substances??

 

[LuisDantas]

Can I get enlightened too through certain substances??

Heck, I sure doubt it and hope not.

 

[DanielR]

no worries, I'm not taking anything lol, I was thinking of
Ayahuasca

 

[DanielR]

I've read on other forums of people taking DMT and thinking they are enlightened, that's why I was asking

 

[DanielR]

Thanks

 

[NIX]

*Post Removed*

These things can serve to loosen your psyche yes. Under the best circumstances though this would/could only be a precursor to the naturally induced and prolonged heightened state of reality (epiphany) experience I am talking about. Not that anyone asked me.

 

[skinker]

I don't think you will find any enlightened person here. We all are learners/ beginners/ seekers. However please ask your questions. Maybe any one of us answers you.

Hey, speak for yourself. I've lost a pound since yesterday so I'm obviously enlightened today.

 

[apophenia]

Can I get enlightened too through certain substances??

Possibly for a few seconds here and there.

Most people don't. Most people have short bursts of liberation from their habitual state accompanied or followed by insights into their habitual state.

Following that, most people immediately come down, and have some memory of that event, which is already being filtered through, and modified by, their re-eemergent habitual state. Then they construct a mystical paradigm based on those reworked memories, and often become quite convinced that this new mental model they have built,based on their memory of that experience, is enlightenment.

This can become a very intractable imitation or role-play of 'enlightenment', which is actually a fabrication.

So I have observed many times over many years.

 

[Sunstone]

Possibly for a few seconds here and there.

Most people don't. Most people have short bursts of liberation from their habitual state accompanied or followed by insights into their habitual state.

Following that, most people immediately come down, and have some memory of that event, which is already being filtered through, and modified by, their re-eemergent habitual state. Then they construct a mystical paradigm based on those reworked memories, and often become quite convinced that this new mental model they have built,based on their memory of that experience, is enlightenment.

This can become a very intractable imitation or role-play of 'enlightenment', which is actually a fabrication.

So I have observed many times over many years.

I've noticed much the same thing.

 

[Sunstone]

Can I get enlightened too through certain substances??

Maybe you can. I don't know about everyone, but all of the people I personally know who have sought enlightenment through drugs just ended up self-centered and narcissistic. I have no idea why.

 

[Penumbra]

Well, it's New Year's Eve. I've got quite a bit of wine in me and we just watched some movies. Got stuff to do later, but I got about an hour to kill so I'll look through some of these posts since I didn't have time to earlier today. That combination should be interesting.

And oh, this is my 10,000th post. :areyoucra

 

[Sunstone]

Well, it's New Year's Eve. I've got quite a bit of wine in me and we just watched some movies. Got stuff to do later, but I got about an hour to kill so I'll look through some of these posts since I didn't have time to earlier today. That combination should be interesting.

And oh, this is my 10,000th post. :areyoucra

Happy New Years! It seems to me that most of your ten thousand posts have been interesting and informative.

 

[apophenia]

I've noticed much the same thing.

I've noticed that it is very similar to a process which meditators go through also. It's just more dramatic and obvious when psychedelics are involved.

This is not meant as a cynical criticism either. I have experienced the same thing myself. I went through that a lot when I was young, and an 'afficianado' of psychedelia and altered states.

I also went through the protracted psychodrama of approaching-and-avoiding 'ego-death'.

My experiences tell me that this is the real value of a guru, or meditation teacher, if they are themselves aware of this process.

The genuine guru walks beside the meditator doing a job not unlike the ancient Roman dude whose job it was to keep reminding the Emperor "you are just a man".

I'm not saying that the 'cosmic insights' of peak experiences are false, but the day-to-day ego is not a problem to be overcome, or a temporary stage to outgrow, either. It's just the way we are.

 

[apophenia]

Well, it's New Year's Eve. I've got quite a bit of wine in me and we just watched some movies. Got stuff to do later, but I got about an hour to kill so I'll look through some of these posts since I didn't have time to earlier today. That combination should be interesting.

And oh, this is my 10,000th post. :areyoucra

Happy 10000th ! Happy New Year 1

( Be careful posting if you've been drinking . Or not. In vino veritas ! )