Who here is enlightened?

[Student of X]

Which higher order of knowledge did you acquire?

That question makes no sense to me.

Did you skip over the lower order of knowledge or did you acquire that too?

That question makes no sense to me.

Which non-local information did you acquire?

Knowledge of higher states of being, higher levels of reality, higher modes of thought.

They can be verifications to other people if the knowledge that is acquired is something that the other people know, but that you should not know without non-local means. Since, if you know that information, then you acquired it non-locally.

If what you're looking for is evidence that people are indeed capable of acquiring non-local information by paranormal means there is plenty out there. The body of parapsychological evidence is very, very strong. I can recommend some books if you wish. It seems to me that if you are genuinely interested in the issue you'll take me up on that.

If, on the other hand, what you're looking for is evidence that *I* have acquired non-local knowledge by paranormal means, then I should warn you I feel no need to convince you of anything. Trying to would probably do you no good and just end up frustrating me. Why should I bother?

 

[Penumbra]

So when you were united with the universe, did you acquire any knowledge that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to have in your own body and mind?

Yeah. A higher order of knowledge.

Which higher order of knowledge did you acquire?

That question makes no sense to me.

Ok...

Knowledge of higher states of being, higher levels of reality, higher modes of thought.

Like what specifically?

If what you're looking for is evidence that people are indeed capable of acquiring non-local information by paranormal means there is plenty out there. The body of parapsychological evidence is very, very strong. I can recommend some books if you wish. It seems to me that if you are genuinely interested in the issue you'll take me up on that.

I've already looked, and found none that has met scientific standards.

If, on the other hand, what you're looking for is evidence that *I* have acquired non-local knowledge by paranormal means, then I should warn you I feel no need to convince you of anything and trying to would probably do you no good and just end up frustrating me. Why should I bother?

You're under no pressure to demonstrate anything. This thread and all threads are free to participate in or to leave whenever a member wants.

However, I'd point out that I've met many people who have claimed non-local knowledge only to not want to show it.

 

[Penumbra]

Although if you want to suggest specific books I'll write them down.

My backlog of reading is huge at this point but if I have them written down I may get to them.

 

[Student of X]

Ok...

Like what specifically?

If you've read anything about mysticism and enlightenment then you should know that words can't get you there. Can you quench your thirst by talking about water? Can you quench it by asking me what its like to grok a life-saving spring of fresh clean water?

I've already looked, and found none that has met scientific standards.

You did it wrong. Period. The parapsychological evidence is overwhelming and unless you are selectively using double-standards the parapsychological evidence meets the same standards as any other branch of science.

You're under no pressure to demonstrate anything. This thread and all threads are free to participate in or to leave whenever a member wants.

However, I'd point out that I've met many people who have claimed non-local knowledge only to not want to show it.

Want to show it? What's that supposed to mean? Psychic ability is not a light switch you can just flick on for someone to show them the light. There are psychological and physiological and environmental variables that can interfere with it. The conscious mind doesn't control it. The unconscious mind does. I'm only an ego-self. I don't call the shots.

Sorry but comic books and sci-fi and tabloids have left you with unrealistic expectations and exaggerated imagery in your unconscious mind. Thats why its necessary for you to keep reading books and practice mysticism for yourself.

 

[Penumbra]

If you've read anything about mysticism and enlightenment then you should know that words can't get you there. Can you quench your thirst by talking about water? Can you quench it by asking me what its like to grok a life-saving spring of fresh clean water?

Words can't get me there, and yet you recommend books?

You did it wrong.

Period.

Easy to say.

The parapsychological evidence is overwhelming and unless you are selectively using double-standards the parapsychological evidence meets the same standards as any other branch of science.

Any peer reviewed papers you can link to?

If the evidence is overwhelming why are they not considered scientific or medical facts at the current time?

Want to show it? What's that supposed to mean? Psychic ability is not a light switch you can just flick on for someone to show them the light. There are psychological and physiological variables that can interfere with it. The conscious mind doesn't control it. The unconscious mind does. I'm only an ego-self. I don't call the shots.

Sorry but comic books and sci-fi have left you with unrealistic expectations and exaggerated imagery in your unconscious mind. Thats why its necessary for you to keep reading books and practice mysticism for yourself.

Actually any expectations came from the scriptures, religious stories, and books that originated this stuff.

But more or less, I'm just letting people here describe their own experiences and then asking questions to see what characteristics it has.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I personally don't think that there's a single, objective definition for 'enlightenment'; the concept seems to vary between different philosophies and religions, with different criteria as to what constitutes being enlightened.

For me, I guess an "enlightened" person would be one who is knowledgeable, humble, open-minded, and always ready to learn more and consider their views in light of new information.

I believe Bertrand Russell was largely correct in his description of a wise person (which, in my opinion, is pretty much what an enlightened person is) as opposed to an unwise one:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

 

[Desert Snake]

Any peer reviewed papers you can link to?

I wouldn't waste too much time on that stuff

But more or less, I'm just letting people here describe their own experiences and then asking questions to see what characteristics it has.

Sure, but using terms like "enlightenment" is a set up for confusion, that's all I was saying

 

[YmirGF]

What did you do to achieve creaturehood and what are the benefits of such a state?

What did I do? Unwittingly, I stopped the world. I disassociated from ordinary reality which allowed me to embrace an aspect of myself that I had not been aware prior to the event. Some may call this the "inner self", but it's just me. It's what I am, as far as I can see. Who, on the other hand isn't nearly as interesting. This expanded sense of individuality, Oneness, or personhood directly led to the art of Creaturehood. Now, decades after the initial realization, I can enter this state pretty much at will. It's like how you don't need an address once you have visited a friend a few times... after awhile, you just go there and don't even need to think about it. In effect, it becomes an expanded sense of awareness, rather than what is, at first, an "alternate" awareness. So, what did I/do I do? It's not something that can be translated. I'm not being coy, it's just that there are no suitable words to describe the expansion. It just is....

What are the benefits? Hmmmmm. Well, you eventually end up killing off all god concepts. That much is for sure. At a certain stage conventional god concepts simply become ridiculous. You also learn to savor existence, playing each moment as if it were your last moment on earth. That helps to make every action count - for something, at least. Good and bad are often seen as short-sighted moralistic irrelevancy. Guilt becomes a thing of the past, as one really does tend to do what they believe is the right/best thing to do. So it is a real psychological release mechanism. Self-healing, as it were.

As Sir Doom said earlier, there is also something of a permanent Cheshire Cat grin that takes hold. Plus the unbounded bliss tends to while away the hours in endlessly amusing ways. Once you see through the illusion of this world, one tends to laugh quite a lot... over... almost everything... Oh... did I mention death? It's not much of a big deal either... just a change of focus really... :run:

 

[Student of X]

Words can't get me there, and yet you recommend books?

Only mystical experience can get you to enlightenment. How do you get mystical experience, you ask? By performing mystical acts.

Reading and contemplating mystical poetry is one of many mystical acts you could be performing right now instead of wasting time on the net. So yes I recommend certain books.

Performing mystical acts is practicing mysticism. There are many mystical acts you could chose and so I would recommend books that would help you to understand your options. But why bother?

Sooner or later practicing mysticism leads to mystical experience. Then you learn how hollow all your internet questions are.

Easy to say.

Any peer reviewed papers you can link to?

If the evidence is overwhelming why are they not considered scientific or medical facts at the current time?

I could give you links and such but I don't think it would do any good.

But more or less, I'm just letting people here describe their own experiences and then asking questions to see what characteristics it has.

I know. You aren't really a seeker of enlightenment. You've done this kind of thing before.

 

[Willamena]

Words can't get me there, and yet you recommend books?

Words can explain how words can't get you there.

(Go words!)

 

[Penumbra]

I personally don't think that there's a single, objective definition for 'enlightenment'; the concept seems to vary between different philosophies and religions, with different criteria as to what constitutes being enlightened.

For me, I guess an "enlightened" person would be one who is knowledgeable, humble, open-minded, and always ready to learn more and consider their views in light of new information.

Generally, that's why people get to name their own thing in this thread.

The purpose of the examples (moksha, nibbana, one with the universe, etc), however, aim to show generally what I''m referencing.

I'd view a knowledgeable, humble, open-minded, and ready to learn person as a great person, but it's not exactly what I'm aiming for here. I'm thinking more along the lines of the religious and spiritual concepts that are found within buddhist texts, upanishads, bhagavad gita, new age books, mysticism books, etc. Plus the various concepts that people believe in that aren't necessarily in books.

I believe Bertrand Russell was largely correct in his description of a wise person as opposed to an unwise one:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

I nearly choose to use that as my forum signature once actually, but I chose a pretty butterfly instead.

 

[Penumbra]

Sure, but using terms like "enlightenment" is a set up for confusion, that's all I was saying

Which is precisely why the OP goes out of its way to use several different terms and specifically invite people to use their own words.

 

[Penumbra]

Words can explain how words can't get you there.

(Go words!)

Do you identify as enlightened or one of the other words or similar concepts, or no?

 

[Willamena]

Do you identify as enlightened or one of the other words or similar concepts, or no?

I think that howevermuch you know, there's always more to know.

Same goes for howeverlittle.

 

[Anatta]

Only mystical experience can get you to enlightenment. How do you get mystical experience, you ask? By performing mystical acts.

Reading and contemplating mystical poetry is one of many mystical acts you could be performing right now instead of wasting time on the net. So yes I recommend certain books.

Performing mystical acts is practicing mysticism. There are many mystical acts you could chose and so I would recommend books that would help you to understand your options. But why bother?

Sooner or later practicing mysticism leads to mystical experience. Then you learn how hollow all your internet questions are.

I could give you links and such but I don't think it would do any good.

I know. You aren't really a seeker of enlightenment. You've done this kind of thing before.

You know, Mr. Yogi, the way you get so defensive, bob and weave, and alternately offer and withhold information and evidence, one could almost be forgiven for thinking you might be lying about the whole thing...

 

[Penumbra]

Only mystical experience can get you to enlightenment. How do you get mystical experience, you ask? By performing mystical acts.

Reading and contemplating mystical poetry is one of many mystical acts you could be performing right now instead of wasting time on the net. So yes I recommend certain books.

Performing mystical acts is practicing mysticism. There are many mystical acts you could chose and so I would recommend books that would help you to understand your options. But why bother?

Like I said, you can list the books if you want. You've already listed one.

Books have their uses but so do people. One might as well go straight to the source and talk to people who propose to be enlightened. Especially since several are available.

Sooner or later practicing mysticism leads to mystical experience. Then you learn how hollow all your internet questions are.

The thing about the methods is that they're designed to be non falsifiable. If they don't work, it's because you didn't do them long enough, or that it'll happen in a different lifetime.

I could give you links and such but I don't think it would do any good.

Links to peer reviewed sources, or links to people with websites? I'd be interested in the former but not the latter, especially considering your points about the overwhelming evidence and the absolute certainty in your claim about "You did it wrong. Period".

I know. You aren't really a seeker of enlightenment. You've done this kind of thing before.

I haven't said in this thread that I'm a seeker of enlightenment.

I'm a seeker to learn about people. Which is why I'm talking to people.

 

[Penumbra]

What did I do? Unwittingly, I stopped the world. I disassociated from ordinary reality which allowed me to embrace an aspect of myself that I had not been aware prior to the event. Some may call this the "inner self", but it's just me. It's what I am, as far as I can see. Who, on the other hand isn't nearly as interesting. This expanded sense of individuality, Oneness, or personhood directly led to the art of Creaturehood. Now, decades after the initial realization, I can enter this state pretty much at will. It's like how you don't need an address once you have visited a friend a few times... after awhile, you just go there and don't even need to think about it. In effect, it becomes an expanded sense of awareness, rather than what is, at first, an "alternate" awareness. So, what did I/do I do? It's not something that can be translated. I'm not being coy, it's just that there are no suitable words to describe the expansion. It just is....

When you say oneness, what characteristics of oneness were there? What specifically was linked?

You exist, and I exist. In your worldview, are we one, or are we two? If we are one, in what way are we one?

What are the benefits? Hmmmmm. Well, you eventually end up killing off all god concepts. That much is for sure. At a certain stage conventional god concepts simply become ridiculous. You also learn to savor existence, playing each moment as if it were your last moment on earth. That helps to make every action count - for something, at least. Good and bad are often seen as short-sighted moralistic irrelevancy. Guilt becomes a thing of the past, as one really does tend to do what they believe is the right/best thing to do. So it is a real psychological release mechanism. Self-healing, as it were.

As Sir Doom said earlier, there is also something of a permanent Cheshire Cat grin that takes hold. Plus the unbounded bliss tends to while away the hours in endlessly amusing ways. Once you see through the illusion of this world, one tends to laugh quite a lot... over... almost everything... Oh... did I mention death? It's not much of a big deal either... just a change of focus really... :run:

Well, I already don't view conventional god concepts in a reasonable light, already view good and bad as moralistically relative, already view feelings like anger and guilt as irrelevant and don't really experience them, and I've actually been criticized many a time for always having a grin (literal or metaphorical). I've been told in the same day by different people that I a) take things too seriously and b) never take anything seriously. :sarcastic

The parts I find foreign are the "oneness" and the "bliss" that some people talk about. I can speculate on the reasons for the difference but when it comes to learning about people, it's better just to talk with them.

Especially people that tend to remain calm and participate in the discussion, such as yourself.

 

[Penumbra]

I think that howevermuch you know, there's always more to know.

Same goes for howeverlittle.

Have you experienced things for which words like moksha, nibbana, one with the universe, or enlightenment, have any reference or meaning?

 

[Debater Slayer]

When you say oneness, what characteristics of oneness were there? What specifically was linked?

You exist, and I exist. In your worldview, are we one, or are we two? If we are one, in what way are we one?

Well, I already don't view conventional god concepts in a reasonable light, already view good and bad as moralistically relative, already view feelings like anger and guilt as irrelevant and don't really experience them, and I've actually been criticized many a time for always having a grin (literal or metaphorical). I've been told in the same day by different people that I a) take things too seriously and b) never take anything seriously. :sarcastic

The parts I find foreign are the "oneness" and the "bliss" that some people talk about. I can speculate on the reasons for the difference but when it comes to learning about people, it's better just to talk with them.

Especially people that tend to remain calm and participate in the discussion, such as yourself.

(Emphasis mine.)

Is there any particular reason for that? For example, a perceived lack of free will?

I realize that the question is pretty off topic in this thread, though, so I'd be willing to start a new thread to discuss it in case you don't want to answer it here to avoid derailing this one.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Every being is already enlightened. Being enlightened means we have the option of believing we aren't enlightened and this idea that we aren't has spread through habit.

Throw out a term. Imply something unique, special, and hard to obtain, add confusing academic nuances and give it a good curve to measure, and bingo! Here's looking at you kid... ;0)