Who here is enlightened?

[Sunstone]

Are you enlightened?

Sure! I've lost ten pounds in just the past three months.

 

[Sunstone]

Of course to put this into words colors it to be other than it is, as I'm sure you know. That said, what is "experienced" is just Consciousness itself, with a capital C. It is not 'your consciousness'. It is simply Awareness. Is there a sense of "I", as in 'me' looking at it and thinking about it? No. That sense of a separate self dissolves into pure Awareness itself. Can our mind access that afterwards? Of course. But how we then proceed to conceptualize it changes it. it's now a mind-object, a memory, a representation. Awareness itself is object-less.

But of course, that's not the nondual experience which can embrace duality. That's the next turning of the wheel of dharma with Nagarjuna in the East, and Plotinus in the West, moving beyond Nirvana into the world of form. If you're interested in reading the difference between what people commonly call nonduality versus what the nondual schools actually teach, this is a great article to explain the difference: Not Duality is Not Non Duality | School of Yogic Buddhism

Thanks! That's very interesting.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Didn't the Buddha himself know that he was enlightened?

There is no 'I' present to witness the state of non-duality, it's the yet unenlightened followers who use the concept to make the distinction between themselves and one who they believe has realized the non-dual state of reality.

Siddartha Gautama never wrote anything about himself, nor did Jesus, it is the unenlightened followers who write the narrative based on their presumption that the wisdom is originating from the ego.

 

[nash8]

There is no 'I' present to witness the state of non-duality, it's the yet unenlightened followers who use the concept to make the distinction between themselves and one who they believe has realized the non-dual state of reality.

Siddartha Gautama never wrote anything about himself, nor did Jesus, it is the unenlightened followers who write the narrative based on their presumption that the wisdom is originating from the ego.

And you know this for a fact? And do you consider yourself enlightend, or would you talking about yourself being enlightened mean that you weren't enlightened?

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

Sorry to interrupt.

If you're interested in reading the difference between what people commonly call nonduality versus what the nondual schools actually teach, this is a great article to explain the difference: Not Duality is Not Non Duality | School of Yogic Buddhism

Apprentice: I remember the Hindu Vedas were monistic, which is probably why the conference descriptions sound the same.

Rinpoche: Yes exactly.

Wrong. On. So. Many. Levels. Look at my signature (from the Shri Rig Veda). Does the quote look monistic?

Anyways, it was an interesting article. I do like the following quote from the article though:

Holding to both the oneness and multiplicity of existence takes greater spiritual maturity; it requires being present with the moment with all it's paradox and radicalness. Experiencing both the bliss and sorrow of existence takes greater spiritual maturity, it requires us to be present to the entire situation of existence, our own and all others.

M.V.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Well, if enlightenment means what you choose to call nonduality (emptiness, nirvana, etc), then to experience that Emptiness is the same thing as calling that enlightenment.

I recently read in one Sutras where Buddha specifically announced his enlightenment to his disciples. Didn't Christ declare, "I and my Father are One"? Was that his ego full of delusion, all puffed up in some messiah complex, or was it an actual awareness his mind had of true nonduality, which he then declared? Didn't Rumi (I believe) say, "To call oneself God is the most humble thing any man can say"? That doesn't sound like ego. It sounds the opposite to me. Declaring you are enlightened seems natural to do. Not egotistical. "I am Free". Is that boasting, or expressing something truly deep?

So I'm not sure what the issue is here. What's the big deal using the word enlightenment? Doesn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet? What bothers you so much to hear people say they have been enlightened that makes you appear so critical of them?

Refer to my response to Sunstone on the subject of the Buddha claiming enlightenment,...and this little allegorical story from Chuang Tzu may be of help...

Kih Pei Yû, or 'Knowledge Rambling in the North.'


Knowledge had rambled northwards to the region of the Dark Water, where he ascended the height of Imperceptible Slope, when it happened that he met with Dumb Inaction. Knowledge addressed him, saying, 'I wish to ask you some questions:-- By what process of thought and anxious consideration do we get to know the Tâo? Where should we dwell and what should we do to find our rest in the Tâo? From what point should we start and what path should we pursue to make the Tâo our own?' He asked these three questions, but Dumb Inaction gave him no reply. Not only did he not answer, but he did not know how to answer.

Knowledge, disappointed by the fruitlessness of his questioning, returned to the south of the Bright Water, and ascended the height of the End of Doubt, where he saw Heedless Blurter, to whom he put the same questions, and who replied, 'Ah! I know, and will tell you.' But while he was about to speak, he forgot what he wanted to say.

Knowledge, again receiving no answer to his questions, returned to the palace of the the Yellow emperor, where he saw Hwang-Tî (Yellow emperor), and put the questions to him. Hwang-Tî said, 'To exercise no thought and no anxious consideration is the first step towards knowing the Tâo; to dwell nowhere and do nothing is the first step towards resting in the Tâo; to start from nowhere and pursue no path is the first step towards being one with the Tâo.'

Knowledge then proudly addressed Hwang-Tî, saying, 'I and you know this, but those two did not know it; which of us is right?' Hwang-Tî replied, 'Dumb Inaction is truly right, Heedless Blurter has an appearance of being so, but you and I are nowhere near to being so". As it is said, "Those who know do not speak of it, those who speak of it do not know it", and "Hence the sage conveys his instructions without the use of speech."

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And you know this for a fact? And do you consider yourself enlightend, or would you talking about yourself being enlightened mean that you weren't enlightened?

Yes, that is my present understanding. If you can locate any evidence of something Siddartha or Jesus penned themselves, please do so.

Refer to my previous posts on this thread about the impossibility of the ego becoming enlightened,...ever!

Has my mind ever been in a state of stillness, yes!

 

[nash8]

Yes, that is my present understanding. If you can locate any evidence of something Siddartha or Jesus penned themselves, please do so.

Refer to my previous posts on this thread about the impossibility of the ego becoming enlightened,...ever!

Has my mind ever been in a state of stillness, yes!

The Gospel of Thomas says that Jesus said many things that were not neccesarily about himself, what is the difference between saying something and writing it down?

What is the ego?

Were you enlightened at this moment of stillness? Did you lose enlightenment after you lost that moment of stillness? Do you believe it possible to carry this state of stillness in everyday life?

 

[Sunstone]

Do you believe it possible to carry this state of stillness in everyday life?

May I ask what you yourself think about that question, Nash?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The Gospel of Thomas says that Jesus said many things that were not neccesarily about himself, what is the difference between saying something and writing it down?

What is the ego?

Were you enlightened at this moment of stillness? Did you lose enlightenment after you lost that moment of stillness? Do you believe it possible to carry this state of stillness in everyday life?

Sorry nash8, but your present understanding of what is being said appears to be lacking. So I will repeat what had been posted earlier for you and others who would like to know more about the 'gateway' to the non-dual mind state.

What is an essential prerequisite before expecting meaningful answers to the many questions (and this applies to all aspirants) that arise in the mind about 'enlightenment', is to start at the beginning, find out absolutely 'what' and 'who' it is that is asking the question.

Now the answer to this needs to be not a mental conceptual one but to be realized absolutely. Iow, find out 'what' and 'who' 'you' are, without using the dualistic conceptual mind.

So long as the questioner hasn't realized enlightenment, any attempts to convey conceptually the answers to the questions will not be understood....casting pearls before swine...[/QUOTE]

 

[Windwalker]

Wrong. On. So. Many. Levels. Look at my signature (from the Shri Rig Veda). Does the quote look monistic?

Yes, I was wondering about that. I think perhaps his understanding of the Vedas is incomplete.

 

[Windwalker]

nor did Jesus, it is the unenlightened followers who write the narrative based on their presumption that the wisdom is originating from the ego.

To be blunt, that's crap. You presume this. If you actually read the writings, these "presumers" speak all the time about dying to self.

 

[Windwalker]

Refer to my previous posts on this thread about the impossibility of the ego becoming enlightened,...ever!

What do you consider the ego to be? I'm curious what you understand about the ego.

Has my mind ever been in a state of stillness, yes!

How often?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

To be blunt, that's crap. You presume this. If you actually read the writings, these "presumers" speak all the time about dying to self.

Excuse me? If you have evidence of any original writings of Jesus, do please provide it.

As to the "those "presumers" speak all the time about dying to self." statement, what is the context and why are you addressing it to me?

It does seem to me from your post that you have a reading comprehension problem Windwalker, please pay attention and try and stay in context.

 

[Poeticus]

Yes, I was wondering about that. I think perhaps his understanding of the Vedas is incomplete.

Namaste,

It's not just him, Hindus themselves aren't complete in their understanding of the Shri Vedas either. Hehe. Not even me!

But, I liked what he said about the multiplicity of reality being not only in one, but in twos, threes, and fours as well.

See, the thing is that I am a polytheist. And, the quote that I quoted by Rinpoche from your link reminded me of one by (Indian Historian/Sanskritist) Shri Sita-Ram Goel (I understand they were talking about two different things but their explanations seemed compatible):

"I had never thought that a multiplicity of Gods was the natural and spontaneous expression of an evolved consciousness."

M.V.

 

[Windwalker]

Excuse me? If you have evidence of any original writings of Jesus, do please provide it.

I have never claimed there was. I know there aren't.

As to the "those "presumers" speak all the time about dying to self." statement, what is the context and why are you addressing it to me?

Because you said that these people who wrote about the Buddha and Jesus used these terms such as enlightenment because they saw it as an expression of ego! That's nonsense. These same people who attributed these words to them, also had these Masters talking about dying to the ego. That's completely inconsistent with your accusation that them calling them "enlightened" was a reflection of how they imagined ego on steroids.

It does seem to me from your post that you have a reading comprehension problem Windwalker, please pay attention and try and stay in context.

Likewise... apparently.

 

[Windwalker]

Namaste,

It's not just him, Hindus themselves aren't complete in their understanding of the Shri Vedas either. Hehe. Not even me!

Interesting. Yes, it doesn't surprise me. I think in many regards a great majority in most traditions don't really get the subtle truths underlying their own origins. It's not just Hindu, but Buddhist and Christian as well.

But, I liked what he said about the multiplicity of reality being not only in one, but in twos, threes, and fours as well.

That's what attracts me to it as well. I've had nondual experience, and I'm talking about the Emptiness radiating in multiplicity! That's nonduality. It's a matter of every molecule burning with Light, Love, radiance, from everything, to everything, through everything. All forms being a present expression of infinite depths, bursting forth in all things, from all things, to all things. That's nonduality. Where emptiness is expressed in Being in all that is. It is Life itself.

See, the thing is that I am a polytheist. And, the quote that I quoted by Rinpoche from your link reminded me of one by (Indian Historian/Sanskritist) Shri Sita-Ram Goel (I understand they were talking about two different things but their explanations seemed compatible):



M.V.

:bow:

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What do you consider the ego to be? I'm curious what you understand about the ego.


How often?

Sorry Windwalker, but you do not understand what is being said to you. If you have read my posts and understood them, the answers to your questions are explained. You who are talking to me are the ego, and it is this self identification that will forever prevent the realization of enlightenment.

Now there is nothing that anyone (other than you) can do to provide guidance towards the gateway of non-dual awareness. Conceptual descriptions from another will never be able to deliver enlightenment to you or any other ego,..ever. It is up to you to understand that you need to understand what and who you are directly, not conceptually.

What is an essential prerequisite before expecting meaningful answers to the many questions (and this applies to all aspirants) that arise in the mind about 'enlightenment', is to start at the beginning, find out absolutely 'what' and 'who' it is that is asking the question.

Now the answer to this needs to be not a mental conceptual one but to be realized absolutely. Iow, find out 'what' and 'who' 'you' are, without using the dualistic conceptual mind.

So long as the questioner hasn't realized enlightenment, any attempts to convey conceptually the answers to the questions will not be understood....casting pearls before swine...

 

[Thief]

Is this thread for people who have had a certain experience during meditation that has been given the tag "enlightenment" or not? It has been called many things in different faiths but if someone has experienced it they would know. It is not a general happy go lucky feeling or experience. Those kind of feelings are nice but that is not the event that so many have tried to explain for eons.

do I just go to my local Buddhist temple or something?

I am not interested in every type of philosophy prancing about in disharmonious play. I am looking for people on the same path so that I can learn something form those ahead of me and light the way for those behind. would that not be the point of a religious forum or a thread about enlightenment anyway?

Close to point.

I've heard it said.....the more you attempt to define ....the more elusive that item.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have never claimed there was. I know there aren't.

Because you said that these people who wrote about the Buddha and Jesus used these terms such as enlightenment because they saw it as an expression of ego! That's nonsense. These same people who attributed these words to them, also had these Masters talking about dying to the ego. That's completely inconsistent with your accusation that them calling them "enlightened" was a reflection of how they imagined ego on steroids.


Likewise... apparently.

It is now absolutely clear that you do not comprehend what is being said to you, There is nothing that can be responded to here as your understanding is a misrepresentation of the intended message.

Please consider humility as a way forward and learn about what and who you are, that is the journey towards enlightenment. Non-dual awareness will only ever be revealed from within...