Who here is enlightened?

[Thief]

It is now absolutely clear that you do not comprehend what is being said to you, There is nothing that can be responded to here as your understanding is a misrepresentation of the intended message.

Please consider humility as a way forward and learn about what and who you are, that is the journey towards enlightenment. Non-dual awareness will only ever be revealed from within...

As in....your thoughts are your own?.....not hearing voices?

 

[Windwalker]

Sorry Windwalker, but you do not understand what is being said to you. If you have read my posts and understood them, the answers to your questions are explained. You who are talking to me are the ego, and it is this self identification that will forever prevent the realization of enlightenment.

That really doesn't answer my question. My fingers are typing on a keyboard. This is also me, but not "me", just as my ego isn't "me", from a certain vantage point. Is the ego "bad"? Does the ego itself prevent enlightenment, as you say? Or is it where we place the seat of our identities that is the actual issue, and not the ego, or the body itself? You do know that children don't really have a developed ego yet, and their seat of self-identity is the body, right?

So what specifically is the ego?

As far as me not getting what you're saying, that's not an issue here.

Now there is nothing that anyone (other than you) can do to provide guidance towards the gateway of non-dual awareness. Conceptual descriptions from another will never be able to deliver enlightenment to you or any other ego,..ever. It is up to you to understand that you need to understand what and who you are directly, not conceptually.

You're preaching to the choir here. Though what you say is very true, it's also very basic.

What is an essential prerequisite before expecting meaningful answers to the many questions (and this applies to all aspirants) that arise in the mind about 'enlightenment', is to start at the beginning, find out absolutely 'what' and 'who' it is that is asking the question.

Now the answer to this needs to be not a mental conceptual one but to be realized absolutely. Iow, find out 'what' and 'who' 'you' are, without using the dualistic conceptual mind.

Again, yes. True, and basic. If you yourself had actually read what I've said, rather than not, you'd know I understand this.

So long as the questioner hasn't realized enlightenment, any attempts to convey conceptually the answers to the questions will not be understood....casting pearls before swine...

You impress me as rather condescending to others, betraying a certain self-image that lacks something essential.

Point in case:

"Btw, here is a thread where all the RF egoless enlightened beings have gathered in the past to show their 'stuff', please feel free to post details of your nirvanic experience there. Oh and yes, all new RF self proclaimed enlightened beings can join in, as well of course as the old ones. See you there...

Who here is enlightened?​

From here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3426794-post30.html

Seriously? To me enlightenment leads to humility and compassion, not this sad display of ego.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

\Seriously? To me enlightenment leads to humility and wisdom, not this display.

Superior virtue does not know virtue,
Unenlightened aspirants practice virtue...

 

[Windwalker]

I'm glad I'm not enlightened.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

As in....your thoughts are your own?.....not hearing voices?

Whatever, the journey is one of self observation of learning, in the realized state of non-dual awareness, there is no mine or yours, these are merely concepts of the unenlightened mind.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'm glad I'm not enlightened.

You see, you don't understand, the enlightened mind state that does not know virtue is selfless and perfect, its responses are predicated on the universal good, not the personal. The one whose mind is still caught in the maya of duality, can only imitate what it thinks is virtuous on the basis of the contemporary human cultural standards, and has to be practiced.

 

[nash8]

There is no 'I' present to witness the state of non-duality, it's the yet unenlightened followers who use the concept to make the distinction between themselves and one who they believe has realized the non-dual state of reality.

Siddartha Gautama never wrote anything about himself, nor did Jesus, it is the unenlightened followers who write the narrative based on their presumption that the wisdom is originating from the ego.

You miss my point, writing something and saying something are one in the same. So you would deny that either of them ever said anything about themselves?

Does the state of non duality recognize the I, in either present or past experiences? As a memory or some other form? Does the non duality concious cease to have memories?

May I ask what you yourself think about that question, Nash?

Most certainly, I believe there are many, or atleast a few that do so today. Most of them however, are people that almost completely withdraw from society. They do not subject themselves to the common stresses of Westernized life, which allows them to attain this state and maintain it in everday life. Usually, they also have the benefit of having like-minded individuals around them that further supports their ability to maintain this state of awareness.

The true "Masters" throughout history, however, had the ability to carry this state with them in everday society (Jesus, Buddha, Zoraster, Mohammad, etc). They were able to maintain this state dealing with "normal" people on a regular basis. Doing this is EXTREMELY difficult, at least in my opinion, and is the reason people like this only come along every once in a while.

With that being said, I also believe that there are certain conditions in the world right now that would contribute to more peolple being able to obtain and maintain this state then their ever has been in the history of the world. So if ever there were a chance, now would be the time in my opinion.

Sorry nash8, but your present understanding of what is being said appears to be lacking. So I will repeat what had been posted earlier for you and others who would like to know more about the 'gateway' to the non-dual mind state.

I think I understand what you are saying just fine. I just don't agree with you lol. You're are saying that when someone becomes enlightened, their ego ceases to exist, so there is "noone", in the notion that society recognizes, within the self to recognize that he/she is enlightened. Therefore there is no "I", and no self.

What is an essential prerequisite before expecting meaningful answers to the many questions (and this applies to all aspirants) that arise in the mind about 'enlightenment', is to start at the beginning, find out absolutely 'what' and 'who' it is that is asking the question.

Ahhh, the self proclaimed unenlightened, speaks on the correct path to enlightenment. Can you cite some sources so that I may verify where that your path is indeed the "correct" path.

Now the answer to this needs to be not a mental conceptual one but to be realized absolutely. Iow, find out 'what' and 'who' 'you' are, without using the dualistic conceptual mind.

Does absolutely realizing something, require more than non absolutely realizing something? How does one go about using this other mind you speak of?

So long as the questioner hasn't realized enlightenment, any attempts to convey conceptually the answers to the questions will not be understood....casting pearls before swine...

So the only people that can understand the enlightened are other enlightened folks, interesting.

It is now absolutely clear that you do not comprehend what is being said to you, There is nothing that can be responded to here as your understanding is a misrepresentation of the intended message.

Please consider humility as a way forward and learn about what and who you are, that is the journey towards enlightenment. Non-dual awareness will only ever be revealed from within...

Your total and utter arrogance betrays you ben d. You tell one to act with humulity, yet you act with none. You talk about dissovling the ego, yet you speak in such an egotistical manner that it is plainly obvious that you have not taken the first step to dissolve your own.

It's not that I don't understand what your saying, it's that I don't agree with what your saying, nor how you are saying it. In my view, you are working towards the half as if it where the whole, then you are speaking as though yours is the only path, when in my opinion, your path ends at the mountain.

My view of enlightenment does not base itself on dissolution of the ego, as that is impossible, from a neuroscientific standpoint. Rather, it is not the dissolution of the ego that creates enlightenment in my opinion, but the surrender of the ego to universal conciousness, or better yet, the merger of universal conciousness with the ego. The ego and universal conciousness still exist seperately of themselves, yet they are not discernable as two seperate entities anymore, where as before this union, they were.

Without, what we call "ego" one would not be able to do anything perse. You would more or less, be in a catatonic state, and you might not even be able to live, because the ego would likely control basic bodily functions.

You speak of non-dual awareness, yet fail to realize that duality can be oneness, just as easily as nothingness can be oneness, or for that matter, oneness can be oneness.

If you have none then you have one, if you have one than you have none. Is the Ying-Yang a representation of Duality or oneness?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You speak of non-dual awareness, yet fail to realize that duality can be oneness, just as easily as nothingness can be oneness, or for that matter, oneness can be oneness.

Fyi, the concept of duality means twoness, not oneness.

The apparent duality only comes about because of limited human perception, you identify in your mind with the physical body, and all that is outside your body is not you,..yes?

However if you imagine that the enlightened state involves 3D time/space conceptual reality like that, then you are mistaken. The Cosmos, perceived and transcendent is one, the apparent multiplicity is due to limited perception.

 

[nash8]

Fyi, the concept of duality means twoness, not oneness.

The apparent duality only comes about because of limited human perception, you identify in your mind with the physical body, and all that is outside your body is not you,..yes?

However if you imagine that the enlightened state involves 3D time/space conceptual reality like that, then you are mistaken. The Cosmos, perceived and transcendent is one, the apparent multiplicity is due to limited perception.

Does it? Is the Ying Yang representative of oneness, or "twoness" as you put it. What are you suppose to do with the Ying Yang?

On the contrary, I believe I am me, but all outside of my body is me as well. And on the other hand, I am all that is outside my body, and all that is outside of my body is is what I am as well. And on so many different levels.

 

[Leftimies]

I don't think any of us is. Yet, at least. Then again, I wouldn't know - I don't see into your minds, who knows how illuminated they are!

I only know myself, and that I am far from complete.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Does it? Is the Ying Yang representative of oneness, or "twoness" as you put it. What are you suppose to do with the Ying Yang?

On the contrary, I believe I am me, but all outside of my body is me as well. And on the other hand, I am all that is outside my body, and all that is outside of my body is is what I am as well. And on so many different levels.

nash8 mate, just do your best.

Let me leave you with a thought,..there is reality itself, whose indivisible unity is omnipresent, and there is the human brain derived conceptual interpretation of the perceived aspects of this reality in time and space.

Now conceptual interpretation of reality is not the same as reality itself, the first is merely a mental construct/symbolic representation of the real thing, and the second is the real thing.

To be enlightened, the mind must be one with the oneness of all that is, devoid of time and space limitations, and not use the conceptual mind that does such a reasonable job dealing with survival in the physical world.

That you disagree is no bother, all the best and God bless.

 

[Muffled]

I agree with you a lot. If a person has a mystical experience, then what happens? If it makes the person treat others better, then it's great. But the general trend when a person has a mystical experience, when they have no training to the contrary, is to immediately go tell everyone (anyone who will listen) all about it.

But besides the treatment of others, the way I would discern it is the way the individual reacts. Enlightened souls are free from anger, from doubt, from fear, and free from all the other lower emotions. In the very least they have control of their own awareness, and can move it around at will. There is non-reaction, a lot of silence and observation, and when they do speak, it is highly relevant to the situation at hand, not meandering hither thither. They have incredible self-discipline.

I believe losing doubt, fear and anger causes a person to be less human. I fail to see how losing one's humanity is conducive to enlightenment or even that it is an enlightened outlook. It seems more perverse than anything to me.

I am sure a lot of people practice the art of ignoring the obvious but that doesn't seem enlightened to me.

I believe it is not wise to speak much but silence can be deadly and highly unwise.

I love to do this but by itself it brings a very self oriented view of that which is being observed.

Self displine sounds good but I believe it is still a self oriented position.

 

[Windwalker]

nash8 mate, just do your best.

Let me leave you with a thought,..there is reality itself, whose indivisible unity is omnipresent, and there is the human brain derived conceptual interpretation of the perceived aspects of this reality in time and space. Now conceptual interpretation of reality is not the same as reality itself, the first is merely a mental construct/symbolic representation of the real thing, and the second is the real thing.

And right there you create "Reality" as a duality. You place it outside your mental concepts. It denies them as part of the world and the experience of being. It creates a division between true/false. You "nonduality" is in fact duality.

Again to quote, "Not-duality and non-duality are not the same things. Not-duality obliterates duality, which is actually only dualism disguised in self-denying tendencies." From here: Not Duality is Not Non Duality | School of Yogic Buddhism

To interpret this for you since you've explicitly stated before you refused to read it yourself. What nonduality does is it is able to see emptiness in form. Your mental models of reality are part of the experience of reality, and as such are reality too. The error happens is when one exclusively identifies with any object itself as the Ultimate Reality. Nirvana is an escape from material world of illusion, the world we mistakenly identify as all there is to reality. And that's all good and fine as it takes the blinders off. But to then call that the Ultimate Reality and eject the rest is itself Duality.

This is what the great nondual masters came to. Yes, find the One, but then know the One in all forms and through all forms. Which would also include your ego. Which would include your thoughts and emotions and your body, and others and all things. You see emptiness through form itself, and there is "not one, not two". That is nonduality. Not what you keep going on about.

To be enlightened, the mind must be one with the oneness of all that is, devoid of time and space limitations, and not use the conceptual mind that does such a reasonable job dealing with survival in the physical world.

Again, this is just the first step, but not the end. Yes, you must move beyond the conceptual mind. No problem there. But then to flee samsara and rest in the formless alone, is not reality. It denies Life. It is itself duality.

And I agree completely with Nash on the contradictory display of your ego with your words. I'm curious, were you a fundamentalist believer at some point in your life, a dogmatic atheist, or something like this?

 

[Muffled]

Does it? Is the Ying Yang representative of oneness, or "twoness" as you put it. What are you suppose to do with the Ying Yang?

On the contrary, I believe I am me, but all outside of my body is me as well. And on the other hand, I am all that is outside my body, and all that is outside of my body is is what I am as well. And on so many different levels.

"I am the eggman; I am the Walrus" lyrics in a song sung by the Beatles.

 

[chinu]

Well am just fed up seeing this thread coming again and again in front of my eyes. OK, am Enlightened.
Now, tell me what's your problem ?

 

[nash8]

nash8 mate, just do your best.

Let me leave you with a thought,..there is reality itself, whose indivisible unity is omnipresent, and there is the human brain derived conceptual interpretation of the perceived aspects of this reality in time and space.

Now conceptual interpretation of reality is not the same as reality itself, the first is merely a mental construct/symbolic representation of the real thing, and the second is the real thing.

To be enlightened, the mind must be one with the oneness of all that is, devoid of time and space limitations, and not use the conceptual mind that does such a reasonable job dealing with survival in the physical world.

That you disagree is no bother, all the best and God bless.

And the same to you my friend.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And right there you create "Reality" as a duality. You place it outside your mental concepts. It denies them as part of the world and the experience of being. It creates a division between true/false. You "nonduality" is in fact duality.

Haha, well if you've understood my conceptual explanations so far, you should have realized that it is impossible to convey reality/oneness/non-duality/God/Tao/Nirvana to aspirants directly, and that the use of conceptual language is a temporary expedient to point the way to realizing it directly. So the aspirant, if they have the prerequisite understanding, use their conceptual mind to interpret the conceptual teaching that the conceptual reality is not the same thing as actual reality, and therefore they must develop a mind that is still and free from thought in order to realize enlightenment. Ironic yes, the teaching using conceptual language that the truth can never be apprehended by conceptual understanding? Nevertheless, this teaching that there can be no true conceptual teaching, is the best teaching available, for it is saying that conceptualization can be used for pointing the way, but real understanding comes from realizing non-duality directly through the stilling of conceptualizations of the mind, directly.

Btw, in case you have not understood, this is not to imply that the conceptual mind is not essential to physical life, it is, but it is not essential to transcendent existence beyond the physical, and the path to enlightenment prepares the aspirant for the permanent leaving of the physical body and world.

This is not a teaching for those who fully identify with their ego consciousness as being the full extent of conscious being, it is for those who have felt their potential for the fulfillment of Divine destiny and are prepared to go beyond the fear of ego death. Mind you, the fear of ego death is so very horrifying, and is what prevents the vast majority of aspirants from realizing enlightenment, but for those that overcome this last and deepest fear, there is no annihilation of anything, just a glory beyond understanding.

 

[Thief]

Whatever, the journey is one of self observation of learning, in the realized state of non-dual awareness, there is no mine or yours, these are merely concepts of the unenlightened mind.

No dualism?
My thoughts are your thoughts?
My dreams are as yours?
I think not.

The concept of enlightened points out....some of us are not.
More than one concept?
More than one perspective?
Of course there is.

That is what we are here for.
Each one to become unique spirit.

It's not really this or that.....it's multifaceted.

Check my signature.

 

[apophenia]

Well am just fed up seeing this thread coming again and again in front of my eyes. OK, am Enlightened.
Now, tell me what's your problem ?

You're 'fed up' Chinu ? This thread isn't 'coming again and again in front of [your] eyes.' You are choosing to read it, just like anyone else who reads it.

What's your problem ? Tell me

What kind of problems get an enlightened being 'fed up' ? Tell us ! it is only your opinion - but that is true for everyone here... even you and me

But since you are enlightened and fed up with other people's posts, tell us why that is and how it feels for you. That would be more interesting and more valuable than all the 'getting god' stuff. We've all heard that a million times, and it gets very boring, and it doesn't help anyone (IMO). But why is an enlightened being fed up ? That is an interesting subject.

But don't answer this unless you are truly serious, we don't need you to waste our time. We can do that for ourselves LOL

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No dualism?
More than one concept?
More than one perspective?
Of course there is.

That is what we are here for.
Each one to become unique spirit.

Dualism comes into existence when the human mind self identifies with the clay vehicle and perceives existence in terms of me and other than me.

But then mankind was warned about the fall from the enlightened state of non-duality if they ate metaphorically of the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

And yes, there is Divine purpose in the development of unique ego self consciousness, but when the aspirant has reached the prerequisite development and is ready and worthy for transcendent existence beyond the physical, the task is to no longer continue to conceptualize about it, but realize the non-dual state of enlightenment directly through the ceasing of eating from the metaphorical tree of duality, ie thoughts of good and evil, and eat from the metaphorical tree of life (non-dual awareness/enlightenment).