Who here is enlightened?

[nameless]

The stories about him propose as fact that he was enlightened under the Bodhi tree. It's one of the most fundamental concepts of Buddhism; that Gautama was enlightened and that his method works.

all this is true and gautama is indeed enlightened. What i mean to say is that 'gautama'(as a person) exists for us, but for gautama himself 'gautama' as a person dont exist.

 

[atanu]

So in your worldview is everyone enlightened?

I will say it in another way and reserve more discussion for later, if required.

Some say 'particle'. Some say 'wave'. Which is true? It is our sensual apparatus' that decide our world view for us and that makes us use particular words. The reality is reality. Reality is not just the label that we may use to provisionally describe the reality and then forget the part about 'provisional' and tout the label as the reality.

 

[Penumbra]

I don't use the term "enlightened", never have,

That's why the OP clearly states you get to choose your own word.

If none of the example words in the OP like enlightenment, nibbana, moksha, or one with the universe have anything to do with your worldview, then it may or may not be a thread that's targeted to you. I'm leaving that up to each reader to decide, as they decide to respond or not.

It's certainly not meant for everyone. Look at who replied so far; mostly Dharmic forum members. Most members of Abrahamic religions, for example, will not be a particularly good match for this thread except for their more mystic subsets.

so i'm still not clear on what that definition entails to you.

disciple, it entails countless things to me. Not any one thing. That's the point.

There are numerous worldviews floating in my head that I'm willing to draw from and discuss with people on whatever level or concept they present themselves with in this thread.

It could be Upanishad material, or from the Gita, or from Buddhist literature, Taoist, New Age, Christian Apocrypha, etc. The invitation is about as open as it could possibly be.

 

[Desert Snake]

That's why the OP clearly states you get to choose your own word.

If none of the example words in the OP like enlightenment, nibbana, moksha, or one with the universe have anything to do with your worldview, then it may or may not be a thread that's targeted to you. I'm leaving that up to each reader to decide, as they decide to respond or not.

It's certainly not meant for everyone. Look at who replied so far; mostly Dharmic forum members. Most members of Abrahamic religions, for example, will not be a particularly good match for this thread except for their more mystic subsets.

disciple, it entails countless things to me. Not any one thing. That's the point.

There are numerous worldviews floating in my head that I'm willing to draw from and discuss with people on whatever level or concept they present themselves with in this thread.

It could be Upanishad material, or from the Gita, or from Buddhist literature, Taoist, New Age, Christian Apocrypha, etc. The invitation is about as open as it could possibly be.

Fine, didn't mean to press the issue.

 

[Penumbra]

all this is true and gautama is indeed enlightened. What i mean to say is that 'gautama'(as a person) exists for us, but for gautama himself 'gautama' as a person dont exist.

Which specifically do you mean to say here?

A) That Gautama was a character rather than a historical figure.

B) That Gautama was a historical figure but due to anatta has no self, no ego, and therefore doesn't exist as a person?

 

[Penumbra]

I will say it in another way and reserve more discussion for later, if required.

Some say 'particle'. Some say 'wave'. Which is true?

Both.

It is our sensual apparatus' that decide our world view for us and that makes us use particular words.

What particularly words would you like to use?

The reality is reality. Reality is not just the label that we may use to provisionally describe the reality and then forget the part about 'provisional' and tout the label as the reality.

So in your worldview is everyone enlightened?

 

[Penumbra]

Fine, didn't mean to press the issue.

People can press what they want.

I'll clarify whatever seems to be necessary.

 

[nameless]

Which specifically do you mean to say here?

A) That Gautama was a character rather than a historical figure.

B) That Gautama was a historical figure but due to anatta has no self, no ego, and therefore doesn't exist as a person?

if i understood your question right, B)

 

[atanu]

Both.

Another word.

What particularly words would you like to use?

Reality is the subject. Words objectify that.

So in your worldview is everyone enlightened?

Yes. In my considered world view, theoretical as of now, there is no 'everyone' and there is none seeking enlightenment. Experiencing this and abiding in this wholeness is enlightenment.

This enlightenment is the timeless and everpresent substratum of the three states of phenomenal existence: waking, dreaming, and sleeping, and needs no bringing up. What is required is just the reverse. To give the thinking mind complete rest.

Even for the 'everyone' worldview, the above is true -- but veiled.

 

[atanu]

B) That Gautama was a historical figure but due to anatta has no self, no ego, and therefore doesn't exist as a person?

Or exists as Buddha, the awake one in all awareness. In short, exists as the all pervading.

 

[Quintessence]

Eh, I commented on this recently in another thread, so I may as well do so here also. Enlightenment would best translate into knowledge of Mysteries in my path. Knowing Mysteries is not an all-or-nothing deal. You will never run out of Mysteries to experience and there is not any end point or conclusion to the journey. It's perpetual. You know some Mysteries, you never know all Mysteries. And one's experience of the Mysteries is always shaped by one's own lenses. If your lenses change, so does your knowledge of the Mysteries. To me, saying you have some final-destination called "enlightenment" is like claiming you can hold the ocean in your hands. It cannot be done.

Or can it?

 

[apophenia]

I'm enlightenment. It's overrated. In fact in many ways it's awful. That's why countless beings create innumerable forms of ignorance.

Ignorance doesn't mean not knowing, btw. It means ignoring. It is an activity, not an absence of information.

Enlightenment does not imply happiness, freedom, charisma, popularity or even satisfaction. Stuff still sucks. Bliss is unavoidable. The mundane and transcendent are inseparable. Go figure.

There is no point in asking me what enlightenment is. As soon as ignoring stops, it's obvious. But any questions about it are just another form of ignoring. As is any attempt to 'attain' it.

So I am of no use to you whatsoever. Enlightenment is of no use to me either.

Carry on ... it doesn't actually matter whether you are enlightened or not. Much ado about nothing.

 

[Anatta]

Him what knows, won't tell ye.
Him who'll tell ye, don't rightly know.

- The Hillbilly Tao

 

[apophenia]

Him what knows, won't tell ye.
Him who'll tell ye, don't rightly know.

- The Hillbilly Tao

In that case I don't believe you

 

[Anatta]

In that case I don't believe you

And rightly so.

Congratulations, you've solved the koan. Your Rinzai priesthood is in the mail.

 

[apophenia]

Just the hood ? I was hoping for the whole outfit, and especially one of those cool sticks.

 

[Anatta]

Just the hood ? I was hoping for the whole outfit, and especially one of those cool sticks.

You get the kit n' kaboodle: super-hero robe, stick, and a Schick Quattro razor to get you started.

Go forth and enlighten.

Gassho

 

[apophenia]

Is it an authentic buddha stick ? I don't want any cheap imitations.

And I'm not going forth, nor multiplying. What else is in your fine print ? You're not from Nigeria are you ?

 

[Anatta]

Is it an authentic buddha stick ? I don't want any cheap imitations.

It is an authentic Buddha stick with a certificate of authenticity. It is made from a real Buddha.

 

[apophenia]

I knew it. Nigeria.