Who here is enlightened?

[Ben Dhyan]

I am Thief.
I steal the ignorance from my fellow man.
I take away his plea of ignorance.
Even as he watches me do so.....

I believe we will stand before the angelic.
No excuses. No saying we didn't know better.
We will stand as thieves.

Sweet Jesus...

Seriously though Thief, it is clear you mean well, God bless.

 

[outhouse]

I steal the ignorance from my fellow man.

You think that highly of yourself?

 

[chinu]

(Serious question.)

Use whatever word is applicable in your worldview, be it enlightenment, moksha, nibbana, one with the universe, etc. I'll use 'enlightenment' for the rest of this post but mentally substitute in your own word as you read it.

Does anyone on this forum claim to be enlightened? If so, please post here so we can talk. I'd like to see who here claims to have reached enlightenment.

The reason I ask is, many people talk about what enlightenment is, how to get there, what it's like, that it is a true concept, etc.

So if you consider yourself enlightened, I invite you to post here. Perhaps you could start by explaining what enlightenment is to you, how you achieved it, how you know you achieved it, and what it is like.

I think you got something wrong, because I never claimed to be enlightened, Thus.. how can I explain how I achieved it and what it is like ?

 

[Prophet]

What do you believe is the root cause of ignorance in existence?

Fear. When beings first manifest physically, they have no concept of fear because they have no selfish desires to protect. While it seems to many of us that babies enter the world ignorant, it is only of _this_ physical realm that they are ignorant. Experience of existence in a world at war forces evil upon all innocent babies soon enough. Born in the full awareness of the Self the goal of all knowledge is our birthright from the start. But while we grow knowledgeable in the evil ways of the world, we grow ignorant of our True Self. Through the evil of others, we learn we are separate from each other in the physical illusion, and grow ignorant that we are all connected in all that is real.

Separated from the True Self, we have no choice but to create an imposter. This is what ego is. A false identification with a temporary body and a temporary life. Always held together by fear.

 

[Windwalker]

Fear. When beings first manifest physically, they have no concept of fear because they have no selfish desires to protect. While it seems to many of us that babies enter the world ignorant, it is only of _this_ physical realm that they are ignorant. Experience of existence in a world at war forces evil upon all innocent babies soon enough. Born in the full awareness of the Self the goal of all knowledge is our birthright from the start. But while we grow knowledgeable in the evil ways of the world, we grow ignorant of our True Self. Through the evil of others, we learn we are separate from each other in the physical illusion, and grow ignorant that we are all connected in all that is real.

Separated from the True Self, we have no choice but to create an imposter. This is what ego is. A false identification with a temporary body and a temporary life. Always held together by fear.

I agree with the point you are trying to make but disagree with the causes, or the implication that the ego is inherently bad. You are correct that fear contributes to our continued sense of separation or knowledge of the True Self. But fear does not come through knowing the evil of others. Fear begins with awareness that one day we will be no more. We will cease to exist.

Fear on the level that touches on us isolating ourselves in the way you describe is based in a self-reflective anxiety. It is an existential dread. It is a self-realization of our future non-existence. As the ego develops in a natural and healthy manner, as well it should and needs to in order for us to function as human social animals, as our self-identity shifts in this dualistic order from the simple body to the developing ego, more and more, we look at the world, the natural order and see death. As humans we uniquely face not just one death, but two deaths. We know the body will die, but it is the second death we deeply fear and that is the dissolution of the awakening 'self', the only 'self' we know, which is embedded in our egos. We are simply at a stage of development in our evolutionary course where self-identity is centered in the ego stage of development. So as we die, the body drops, and then "I" in the mind, will vanish into oblivion, it seems. This is the uniquely human existential dread, the source of all our fears, as we cling to everything that preserves and supports where we place our self-identity.

We seek to not just protect and preserve the body, which is necessary and essential, but we seek to protect and preserve the egoic self, which is good and necessary too, but detrimental when the 'letting go' part of it doesn't happen as we need to grow. We need to nurture our egos, but understand them as a functional part of ourselves, and not what defines who we are, anymore than identification with the body does. It does, to an extent, but not entirely. The same with the ego. But it is the exclusive identification with it that causes this fear you speak of. Then, after this identification with it in this manner, seeing the evil in the world, the injustices, the violence, etc, we seize upon these things as symbolic expressions of what threats us most, and that is letting go of our clinging to our self-identifications.

In enlightenment, that locus of self-identification becomes shaken loose. We face the existential dread, the Void, we face that very face of death we fear, the end of 'self'. The ego's natural acts of self-preservation are released, and that "I" who we are, moves beyond the ego and into the True Self, or the "No-Self" as some interpret it. We are freed from FEAR. We are centered and grounded in Peace. And the reason is, is because we have released the core reason for our fear, which is the dissolution of the 'self', which we mistakenly placed in the ego! We clung to this "thing of the world", like clinging to the body and dreading age and loss of beauty. We hold our fears close to us, because we mistakenly believe that by being ever-vigilant about threats to us, like the little lemur in the forest on constant watch from predictors, it will keep us safe from death.

In reality, to know enlightenment, to know salvation, we have to embrace that fear and that death and move beyond it into release. It's the only way that happens, actually. So it's not really evil that makes us create and crawl into our egos, but evil rather represents our fear we create. After enlightenment, we live in freedom, and see and face that same evil everyday, with our egos and our bodies, but now with our souls and spirit. We cease clinging to them, and face death without that existential dread any longer. We've already died! What is death now?

 

[YmirGF]

In enlightenment, that locus of self-identification becomes shaken loose. We face the existential dread, the Void, we face that very face of death we fear, the end of 'self'. The ego's natural acts of self-preservation are released, and that "I" who we are, moves beyond the ego and into the True Self, or the "No-Self" as some interpret it. We are freed from FEAR. We are centered and grounded in Peace. And the reason is, is because we have released the core reason for our fear, which is the dissolution of the 'self', which we mistakenly placed in the ego! We clung to this "thing of the world", like clinging to the body and dreading age and loss of beauty. We hold our fears close to us, because we mistakenly believe that by being ever-vigilant about threats to us, like the little lemur in the forest on constant watch from predictors, it will keep us safe from death.

I have few quibbles with this WindyOne. Spot on, I'd say. I would alter it to read that we are not freed from FEAR, but rather we have a rather large advantage or a leg up, over unnatural fear. The individual is nowhere near a likely to submit to flights of fancy - in the fear department. I definitely agree on the Root Fear aspect however. Once that cornerstone fear is vaporized, one acquires the courage to face their existing unnatural fears head on.

In reality, to know enlightenment, to know salvation, we have to embrace that fear and that death and move beyond it into release. It's the only way that happens, actually. So it's not really evil that makes us create and crawl into our egos, but evil rather represents our fear we create. After enlightenment, we live in freedom, and see and face that same evil everyday, with our egos and our bodies, but now with our souls and spirit. We cease clinging to them, and face death without that existential dread any longer. We've already died! What is death now?

I've often said here on RF, "I" am already as dead as I am ever going to be. It's not like it's going to be my first time. One of the greatest tricks and motivators to living a full life I have learned is to live each moment as if it was your last moment on Earth. It helps to keep you Here, Now - as tomorrow is never a given.

 

[Thief]

Don't know about the rest of you guys.....
But I've always stood out.....all the way through school...and the work place.

And here at the forum.....
I approach the topic as directly as I can.

Most of the retort is for the sake of digression and attempts to get the 'last word'.

I've never considered such technique ...enlightened.

Anyone attempting the last word?

Never had occasion where you stand out?........a lot?

You know....humility is a lie to say less than so.

 

[gilligan8914]

Enlightenment - The act or means of enlightening or the state of being enlightened."

This state of being can only come about by the self-proclamation of those who claim to be enlightened. Much like a preacher says he was called by god to preach or like the self proclaimed prophet who claims he was visited by god and given a revelation by god. There is no proof of enlightenment or any proof that any human being has ever been enlightened except by their own admission. Very convenient for them. No proof required. The most outlandish claim was made by a person called Saul.

 

[Prophet]

I agree with the point you are trying to make but disagree with the causes, or the implication that the ego is inherently bad. You are correct that fear contributes to our continued sense of separation or knowledge of the True Self. But fear does not come through knowing the evil of others. Fear begins with awareness that one day we will be no more. We will cease to exist.

Fear on the level that touches on us isolating ourselves in the way you describe is based in a self-reflective anxiety. It is an existential dread. It is a self-realization of our future non-existence. As the ego develops in a natural and healthy manner, as well it should and needs to in order for us to function as human social animals, as our self-identity shifts in this dualistic order from the simple body to the developing ego, more and more, we look at the world, the natural order and see death. As humans we uniquely face not just one death, but two deaths. We know the body will die, but it is the second death we deeply fear and that is the dissolution of the awakening 'self', the only 'self' we know, which is embedded in our egos. We are simply at a stage of development in our evolutionary course where self-identity is centered in the ego stage of development. So as we die, the body drops, and then "I" in the mind, will vanish into oblivion, it seems. This is the uniquely human existential dread, the source of all our fears, as we cling to everything that preserves and supports where we place our self-identity.

We seek to not just protect and preserve the body, which is necessary and essential, but we seek to protect and preserve the egoic self, which is good and necessary too, but detrimental when the 'letting go' part of it doesn't happen as we need to grow. We need to nurture our egos, but understand them as a functional part of ourselves, and not what defines who we are, anymore than identification with the body does. It does, to an extent, but not entirely. The same with the ego. But it is the exclusive identification with it that causes this fear you speak of. Then, after this identification with it in this manner, seeing the evil in the world, the injustices, the violence, etc, we seize upon these things as symbolic expressions of what threats us most, and that is letting go of our clinging to our self-identifications.

In enlightenment, that locus of self-identification becomes shaken loose. We face the existential dread, the Void, we face that very face of death we fear, the end of 'self'. The ego's natural acts of self-preservation are released, and that "I" who we are, moves beyond the ego and into the True Self, or the "No-Self" as some interpret it. We are freed from FEAR. We are centered and grounded in Peace. And the reason is, is because we have released the core reason for our fear, which is the dissolution of the 'self', which we mistakenly placed in the ego! We clung to this "thing of the world", like clinging to the body and dreading age and loss of beauty. We hold our fears close to us, because we mistakenly believe that by being ever-vigilant about threats to us, like the little lemur in the forest on constant watch from predictors, it will keep us safe from death.

In reality, to know enlightenment, to know salvation, we have to embrace that fear and that death and move beyond it into release. It's the only way that happens, actually. So it's not really evil that makes us create and crawl into our egos, but evil rather represents our fear we create. After enlightenment, we live in freedom, and see and face that same evil everyday, with our egos and our bodies, but now with our souls and spirit. We cease clinging to them, and face death without that existential dread any longer. We've already died! What is death now?

You believe that we become separate from each other when we learn that we will die. Reduced, you say we grow ignorant to the connection all being share by becoming knowledgeable. Perhaps I am slow-witted, but I cannot follow this logically.

I believe we become ignorant to the connection we have with other beings when we observe and take part in selfishness. Reduced, I say we grow ignorant by learning ignorance.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This thread could do with some new blood, it might be educational if Jayhawker Soule joined in, his view point is generally sincere...c'mon Jay...

 

[YmirGF]

This thread could do with some new blood, it might be educational if Jayhawker Soule joined in, his view point is generally sincere...c'mon Jay...

Haha. That would be seriously illuminating, at the very least.

 

[outhouse]

This thread could do with some new blood, it might be educational if Jayhawker Soule joined in, his view point is generally sincere...c'mon Jay...

I could find a better source of light then using a laser pointer, to shine a path to help people get out of a dark forest.

 

[Thief]

Enlightenment - The act or means of enlightening or the state of being enlightened."

This state of being can only come about by the self-proclamation of those who claim to be enlightened. Much like a preacher says he was called by god to preach or like the self proclaimed prophet who claims he was visited by god and given a revelation by god. There is no proof of enlightenment or any proof that any human being has ever been enlightened except by their own admission. Very convenient for them. No proof required. The most outlandish claim was made by a person called Saul.

The first line doesn't really describe the situation.

Ever sit in congregation and realize the recital?
Recital in not enlightenment.

And then you continue to dismiss an interaction of Spirit and Man as 'convenient'.
Is that right?

I've not seen that such interaction is convenient.
If anything....it becomes hardship.

Standing out in a crowd is quite difficult.
As for back as I can remember....schoolmates were resentful.
I got good grades without effort.
They struggled.
Nationwide comparison tests ranked me superior in science.
My classmates took distance when they found out.

Same in high school.
I took the industrial award in senior year with only one semester of shop.
All the others took shop throughout high school.

In college I instigated machine tools 103 and 104.
Had to get special permission to proceed.
Built a die set in 103 and a floor stand belt sander in 104.
No one else even close to that.

I can restore your dented fender.
Lay down concrete block and brick.
Stud walls, dry wall, and shingle.
Installed my own stick welder in my garage.
Own a lathe and a mill.
Black belt in a self defense style of martial art.
You would need a surgeon to restore what I can harm.
Not a bad sketch artist.

Currently a toolmaker.

And a Thief.

But here is enlightenment for you.
No work of the hand justifies anyone before God.
He can shame our best efforts on a good day....with the least of His own.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This thread could do with some new blood, it might be educational if Jayhawker Soule joined in, his view point is generally sincere...c'mon Jay...

Haha. That would be seriously illuminating, at the very least.

I could find a better source of light then using a laser pointer, to shine a path to help people get out of a dark forest.

Now now, my understanding is that the ego is an obstacle to realizing the transcendent reality, and for my money, Jay's the man who could humiliate enlightenment candidates better than any other on RF,... if they pass his test, they're worthy of a deeper consideration.

 

[Windwalker]

You believe that we become separate from each other when we learn that we will die.

No, I did not say that. I said existential fear is born when after we have come to identify ourselves egoically, and realize one day we will be no more, the fear of the death of our self-aware "me", not just the body.

Reduced, you say we grow ignorant to the connection all being share by becoming knowledgeable. Perhaps I am slow-witted, but I cannot follow this logically.

This may stretch common understanding here, but the way in which we are aware of the connection with all things functions on an unconscious level. As an infant, or any life-form at a precognitive level, that 'knowledge' is always there. It doesn't leave us as adults either. It is always there, but they are just unaware of consciously.

What happens is that as our conscious minds become more and more self-aware, we begin to become more and more differentiated from the world and others. We have moved into a world of subject/object duality, a world a separations. As we move up this ladder of self-awareness into higher stages of development, the more we become fixated into this dualistic world, the less we know how to respond to the intuitive nature of the subconscious world.

But it is there, always there, buried as it were beneath the debris of the ever-chattering waking mind flitting about in the world of mind-objects. As we still the chattering mind and set aside the world of mind-objects, this now higher conscious mind can hear the subconscious mind directly. The consciously self-aware waking mind peers into a world beyond concepts and duality into both the primal ground of which we are connected, and the unrealized potentials latent in all things; the Source and the Summit, the Ground and the Goal, like a loop from itself and to itself in a process of awakening consciousness.

In this sense, we connect consciously, with eyes wide opened to this. Whereas animals and infants, though aware of this as we are, it is on the unconscious level. They are asleep. And as they begin to awake, at a certain point, we realize we are naked and alone in the world as that self-reflection sees its isolation, caught between two-worlds; a world of ignorance, and a world of pure awareness. As Plotinus said well, "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts."

I believe we become ignorant to the connection we have with other beings when we observe and take part in selfishness.

In a sense, yes. But understand that selfishness is a natural, and healthy part of ego development in humans. It is how a child is able to develop a sense of self a world of what is mine and what is not mine. The child has to first see who he is, in order to then later in development move that circle around his self wider and wider to include others.

Healthy ego development, which is necessary and good in order for humans to function, moves from a purely narcissistic self awareness in the beginning in order for it to begin to know itself at all, to identify itself with the family group, then later the peer group, then later to its tribal group, to its ethnic or national group, and so on, up to even more advanced identification with the global community, or the cosmos itself.

Selfishness in adults is unhealthy, unless of course it is part of a regression therapy to relearn a necessary and healthy stage of development that was denied them early on, in which case without that that would be simply unable to move beyond it into higher stages of their development. But someone who is capable of moving beyond narcissism, to remain stuck in it is a dysfunction, or a pathology that prevents growth to the next stage. They indeed experience isolation because they are stuck at an infantile stage of development! How many do we know like this?

I think the important thing to understand is that ego is not bad, nor is narcissism. They are good at a certain stage of development, and a hindrance at another. Put it in terms like this. Is it stage appropriate? If so, then it is good. If no, than its not.

You are right that to expand our circles begins to open us to that Unity. The circle is taking in more. The highest forms of this, so far as we can know at this point, is not a dissolution into unawareness, but a marriage of mind and spirit to that Unity. It is true Knowledge, with eyes wide open. It is ego, transcended and included into the highest states of human awareness.

Reduced, I say we grow ignorant by learning ignorance.

That's true, but we cannot go backward. We have to grow forward to full Awareness.

 

[gilligan8914]

The first line doesn't really describe the situation.

Ever sit in congregation and realize the recital?
Recital in not enlightenment.

And then you continue to dismiss an interaction of Spirit and Man as 'convenient'.
Is that right?

I've not seen that such interaction is convenient.
If anything....it becomes hardship.

Standing out in a crowd is quite difficult.
As for back as I can remember....schoolmates were resentful.
I got good grades without effort.
They struggled.
Nationwide comparison tests ranked me superior in science.
My classmates took distance when they found out.

Same in high school.
I took the industrial award in senior year with only one semester of shop.
All the others took shop throughout high school.

In college I instigated machine tools 103 and 104.
Had to get special permission to proceed.
Built a die set in 103 and a floor stand belt sander in 104.
No one else even close to that.

I can restore your dented fender.
Lay down concrete block and brick.
Stud walls, dry wall, and shingle.
Installed my own stick welder in my garage.
Own a lathe and a mill.
Black belt in a self defense style of martial art.
You would need a surgeon to restore what I can harm.
Not a bad sketch artist.

Currently a toolmaker.

And a Thief.

But here is enlightenment for you.
No work of the hand justifies anyone before God.
He can shame our best efforts on a good day....with the least of His own.

I assume by this post you are claiming to be an enlightened person. Self proclamation again?

 

[challupa]

If anyone did say they were enlightened, would anyone really believe them anyway?

 

[Vinayaka]

If anyone did say they were enlightened, would anyone really believe them anyway?

No. (Well, a few might.) But actions speak louder than words.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

If anyone did say they were enlightened, would anyone really believe them anyway?

I am enlightened.

Do you believe me?

Wait. Let me adjust that: I AM ENLIGHTENTED!!!!

How's about now? You must believe me now, yes?

 

[Vinayaka]

Doesn't all caps mean anger? Well, there goes that theory.