Who here is enlightened?

[Leilaniana]

How do you know that other posters have not experienced the reality represented by those various concepts, and that they are in a position to explain to the unenlightened who claim to be enlightened that there is more to it.

Enlightenment is a timeless state, experiencing involves time, also there is no duality present involving an experiencer and an experience, there is only non-duality.

Correct!

I found out I experienced Kensho.

I meant that having your own experience is the best way to know

 

[Sunstone]

But the general trend when a person has a mystical experience, when they have no training to the contrary, is to immediately go tell everyone (anyone who will listen) all about it.

I've known people like that. I'm not as sure as you are how common it is. A lot of the literature I've read about people who have such experiences is that many -- I don't know what percentage or proportion, but many -- delay talking about their experiences for years or decades afterwards. I do agree, however, that I've run into a lot of people who just can't wait to tell you all about it.

Vinayaka, I have a hunch that the sooner one talks about it afterwards, the more likely they are to couch their experience in the terms of their culture. For instance, the sooner someone living in Alabama talks of her experience, the more likely she is to describe it and come to understand it in terms of Christianity.

But besides the treatment of others, the way I would discern it is the way the individual reacts. Enlightened souls are free from anger, from doubt, from fear, and free from all the other lower emotions. In the very least they have control of their own awareness, and can move it around at will. There is non-reaction, a lot of silence and observation, and when they do speak, it is highly relevant to the situation at hand, not meandering hither thither. They have incredible self-discipline.

I would agree with you that is a good description of an enlightened person, from what little I know of such people. I would add that many of those qualities manifest themselves in how such people treat others and make others feel.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I agree with you a lot. If a person has a mystical experience, then what happens? If it makes the person treat others better, then it's great. But the general trend when a person has a mystical experience, when they have no training to the contrary, is to immediately go tell everyone (anyone who will listen) all about it.

But besides the treatment of others, the way I would discern it is the way the individual reacts. Enlightened souls are free from anger, from doubt, from fear, and free from all the other lower emotions. In the very least they have control of their own awareness, and can move it around at will. There is non-reaction, a lot of silence and observation, and when they do speak, it is highly relevant to the situation at hand, not meandering hither thither. They have incredible self-discipline.

Then I must be enlightened...cause I do all of that...though it's probably more of my upbringing than anything lol.

 

[Sunstone]

Then I must be enlightened...cause I do all of that...though it's probably more of my upbringing than anything lol.

Do you consider yourself free of both fear and desire, then? Just curious.

 

[Leilaniana]

Yes the fruits of the person produce outward manifestation that can indicate to others a persons nature. If the person thinks they are enlightened and are not then it may show on how they treat others, other than that there is no way to know if someone is enlightened, they would know it themselves and they would either correctly know that they are enlightened or they are delusional.

This hits home for me a lot!

After experiencing what I now believe was specifically Kensho and then recieving the information for 5 or 6 of my past lives,and spiritual gifts I can't begin to tell, I am either enlightened or I fear I have a brain tumor! Total sarcasm but still.... I'm a brainiac so I'm aware of the possible biological alternatives.

In this day and age we're trying to reach the top of the mountain on foot but people are flying to the top in helicopters. If I didn't doubt, I'd be ignorant. If I wasn't angry, that after this experience, i had a huge feeling of sadness and obligation because I know in my heart that people aren't even trying to get there, or believe there is a mountain to climb. It made me scared of condition of the souls en masse. It put me in a place where I was like a child trying to make sense of the world in a whole new way. It Made me so sad I though "me? am I the only one? can I really find no other breathing person who is here at this place just past seconds of emptiness just seconds of being filled with light and sound of source? HOw am I the only person I've ever met that has had this experience? How did I find this place of solitude with no map? Am I the only one that is willing? am I alone?

this is where I am at now. From a personal spiritual climb to bliss and the fall afterward of knowing. The apple has been eaten. I feel now like angry sad buddha. It may be delusional of itself to know so surely I was at a place so confident that the place I am at now does not exist. but it does and I am. It is the rabbit hole.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Do you consider yourself free of both fear and desire, then? Just curious.

I was just kidding. I don't consider myself free of them, but I don't think not having them is a great thing. It's what you do when faced with them that matters.

Feeling fear and having desire is a completely normal thing for creatures that exist. It's hardwired into our programing. Even animals experience fear and desire. To dismiss that in my view is to ignore that you are part of this world no matter how much you try not to be. That being said, I do believe it's how you react to the fear and the desires. Nothing is bad, but not everything is necessary. So when I do face a fear or faced with a desire, I usually go into my head and I think about is it necessary. Sometimes I come out of it going "no I won't go down that road" and sometimes I shrug my shoulders and follow.

 

[Sunstone]

I was just kidding.

My apologies. I mistook you for being serious.

I don't consider myself free of them, but I don't think not having them is a great thing. It's what you do when faced with them that matters.

Feeling fear and having desire is a completely normal thing for creatures that exist. It's hardwired into our programing. Even animals experience fear and desire. To dismiss that in my view is to ignore that you are part of this world no matter how much you try not to be. That being said, I do believe it's how you react to the fear and the desires. Nothing is bad, but not everything is necessary. So when I do face a fear or faced with a desire, I usually go into my head and I think about is it necessary. Sometimes I come out of it going "no I won't go down that road" and sometimes I shrug my shoulders and follow.

I think that's wise.

 

[Philomath]

666 replies? This thread is the devil's work

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

My apologies. I mistook you for being serious.




I think that's wise.

Honestly if I was enlightened I wouldn't even know...shrug.

I do wish we had the technology we have now back then, so many people who have done great things in the world...makes you wonder what were their mental states actually like?

Like take for instance Beethoven, one of the most amazing composers of time...records of his conversations with people seem to indicate he had bi-polar disorder. Yet his ability to create music (even while deaf), was amazing...would he be considered an individual who was enlightened? Blessed with a skill beyond normal human means that to this day allow us to experience music that speaks to us?

 

[Sunstone]

I've heard it said that, if you have a mystical experience, it is best to forget it ever happened. For by forgetting it ever happened, you create no obstacles to further such experiences, but by remembering it seems you can create obstacles to further such experiences. Besides which, the experience does not need to be remembered. However it changed you, it changed you, whether you recall it or not.

 

[Sunstone]

Honestly if I was enlightened I wouldn't even know...shrug.

I do wish we had the technology we have now back then, so many people who have done great things in the world...makes you wonder what were their mental states actually like?

Like take for instance Beethoven, one of the most amazing composers of time...records of his conversations with people seem to indicate he had bi-polar disorder. Yet his ability to create music (even while deaf), was amazing...would he be considered an individual who was enlightened? Blessed with a skill beyond normal human means that to this day allow us to experience music that speaks to us?

Of course there are as many definitions of enlightenment as there are people in this world, and then some perhaps, but I don't think Beethoven would be found similar to, say, the Buddha -- if we had some modern technology back then with which to compare their mental states. Just a hunch, of course.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Of course there are as many definitions of enlightenment as there are people in this world, and then some perhaps, but I don't think Beethoven would be found similar to, say, the Buddha -- if we had some modern technology back then with which to compare their mental states. Just a hunch, of course.

True, I wouldn't compare them, but I would think that enlightenment doesn't always have to be a positive state of being but also a state of creation. THere are artists out there who are destroying their bodies and mind, but what they create doesn't seem possible to come from the mind of someone so "disjointed" from the world...yet they do.

 

[Sunstone]

True, I wouldn't compare them, but I would think that enlightenment doesn't always have to be a positive state of being but also a state of creation. THere are artists out there who are destroying their bodies and mind, but what they create doesn't seem possible to come from the mind of someone so "disjointed" from the world...yet they do.

Interesting point. I've never known of an enlightened person of whom it was said they were self-destructive, but then, I know so little about it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Vinayaka, I have a hunch that the sooner one talks about it afterwards, the more likely they are to couch their experience in the terms of their culture. For instance, the sooner someone living in Alabama talks of her experience, the more likely she is to describe it and come to understand it in terms of Christianity.

I would agree with this. The subconscious (memory) mind, after all, has to filter this non-intellectual experience into a memory. So what already exists in the subconscious has to color the filtering.

However,having said that, some paths are more conducive towards such experiences, perhaps even striving for them.

 

[Vinayaka]

Feeling fear and having desire is a completely normal thing for creatures that exist.

Normally, yes. But not for the enlightened. They've transcended that. The Buddha was free from desire. (or so I've read) I think for the ordinary person, it is hard to grasp just how different an enlightened person views the world. I've heard it described as taking effort to come out into ordinary consciousness, whereas, the ordinary being has to strive to go in.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Interesting point. I've never known of an enlightened person of whom it was said they were self-destructive, but then, I know so little about it.

Van Gogh comes to mind.

 

[Sunstone]

However,having said that, some paths are more conducive towards such experiences, perhaps even striving for them.

On that point we might find ourselves in disagreement. I'm of the opinion there are no paths to enlightenment. That is, there is nothing we can do that is guaranteed to bring about enlightenment. However, having said that, I think there are things we can do that decrease the obstacles to enlightenment. And I think some "paths" are more conducive to decreasing those obstacles than others. For instance, I think Dharmic religions are relatively good at doing that.

The analogy I would use is of a house and a breeze. You cannot make the breeze (enlightenment) come and go, but you can open the widows of your house so that, if the breeze comes, it will come in.

But that's just my opinion. I do not know these things as certain.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Normally, yes. But not for the enlightened. They've transcended that. The Buddha was free from desire. (or so I've read) I think for the ordinary person, it is hard to grasp just how different an enlightened person views the world. I've heard it described as taking effort to come out into ordinary consciousness, whereas, the ordinary being has to strive to go in.

What do you think an Autistic person would be considered back then? Or someone with Antisocial Tendencies?

It does seem like humanity has spent a lot of it's time trying to transcend what it is..and while I can definitely see the benefit in it...I'm not sure if it's that good of a thing.

 

[Vinayaka]

On that point we might find ourselves in disagreement. I'm of the opinion there are no paths to enlightenment. That is, there is nothing we can do that is guaranteed to bring about enlightenment. However, having said that, I think there are things we can do that decrease the obstacles to enlightenment. And I think some "paths" are more conducive to decreasing those obstacles than others. For instance, I think Dharmic religions are relatively good at doing that.

The analogy I would use is of a house and a breeze. You cannot make the breeze (enlightenment) come and go, but you can open the widows of your house so that, if the breeze comes, it will come in.

But that's just my opinion. I do not know these things as certain.

I don't think we disagree, but if we do, we do. I think the path to enlightenment does involve hard work, though. Continuing with your breeze analogy, the goal would be to get the breeze constantly flowing, not just occasional wisps. They're nice in that they at least let you know there is a breeze.

 

[Vinayaka]

What do you think an Autistic person would be considered back then? Or someone with Antisocial Tendencies?

It does seem like humanity has spent a lot of it's time trying to transcend what it is..and while I can definitely see the benefit in it...I'm not sure if it's that good of a thing.

I fail to comprehend what you mean by 'back then'? I also think we could be talking about different definitions of enlightenment, in which case the whole discussion won't likely bear fruit.