Who here is enlightened?

[nash8]

Yes, they all walked the same path. In different times places and languages. same path.

I personally don't think they did. I think they reached the same destination, but I believe the paths they took to get there were different. I'm sure they all crossed path at some points, but the whole of the path that they took was different in my personal opinion.

I like your super lantern. we should all make super lanterns. a nice lunar reflective solar power hand crank battery backup torch oil lamp with a candle on top and fireflies blinking so any type of light you want at any time can light the way..... if I could draw i would sooo draw that!!

then Buddha Jesus and Rumi walk out of the darkness with auras blazing confused by the superlanterns.

LOL, that is awesome.

 

[Prophet]

The question to proponents of enlightenment here, is why is it that all of awareness in existence is not already in a state of pure, monist, ego-less, perfect, enlightenment? Why does the perception of duality exist anywhere in existence? Why is it that you and others find themselves as mammals in an illusionary world of dualism from which they must escape via meditating to eliminate the ego? What led you to ever have this problem, rather than having always existed as the enlightened state in which you currently attempt to develop? What makes you not perfect as you are?

I must confess that I find myself mostly puzzled when people speak of dualism. I should also state that I have sincerely never meditated. However, I feel I can speak intelligently to your questions regarding awareness and enlightenment. If enlightenment is at the right end of the scale of awareness, it is ignorance that is on the left.

We were born into a world at war. From the first sentient lifeforms to appear on this planet until now, ignorance has been the cause and result all evil resulting in an unending war. Jesus of Nazareth is documented to have taught us that you are to "love our enemies", with a goal of seeing who we really are. He reasoned that if one could see past whatever earthly (and thus, illusory) circumstances has placed him at odds with another, he could see through the physical illusion and see at once that he is a Son (or Daughter) of God.

 

[Leilaniana]

So do people come on here claiming to be the anti christ or messiah or whatever? I would love to read those threads if they exist....

Random, I know....

...Squirrel

 

[Windwalker]

But I'm talking ten steps back- why do people even seem to exist? Why does any being find itself in Samsara? Why would any aspect of existence ever develop any perception of duality in an existence that is said to truly be non-dualistic? Why is there anything other than pure, monist, perfect enlightened awareness in existence?

If I get the gist of what you are getting at now I'll try to offer some better thoughts. I think the question is why, if the world is Unity, does the sense of separation and suffering even exist then. It has to do with how we developed as a species for certain evolutionary advantages.

In the way back machine we would see ourselves undifferentiated from the world in our self-senses. We were an immediate part of the ecosystem functioning on instinct and impulse as any other evolved life on this planet. But something happened in our brains that allowed us to begin to differentiate ourselves from the world and from each other in a way that created a world of duality on a much more immediately conscious level. We saw the world mentally in me/not me terms. It became a world of subject/object duality as we began operating more dominantly with our conscious minds rather than strictly impulse/instinct.

Doing so offers us clear advantages as a species, but it also creates issues in the system that we now have to try to deal with and correct. We are essentially monkeys with over-sized brains, and that sense of natural awareness that keeps us alive out in the ecosystem, interferes in our structured worlds created through our mental abilities. We are a neurotic species. Our higher evolved brains don't know what to do with all that animal energy in this sack of skin we're in now.

Some have found through mystical experience we find that Peace that brings us into harmony with ourselves and the world. They assume naturally that we 'lost' that harmony when we became humans, and so our myths typically speak of a fall from paradise, a time when we lived with God, then something happened to expel us from that unity. But in reality, in evolutionary terms, there never was a state of realized unity in our past. What there was was an undifferentiated fusion with the earth, with the universe. That is very different than a differentiated unity with the world.

An infant is undifferentiated from his mothers body after birth. It has no emergent self-sense. But gradually in time that differentiation into a separate self begins to occur in stages. He bites his hand then bites the blanket. "Me, not me" begins to surface. But that 'me' is identified exclusively with the body. It is not an egoic me. That happens later, and as that happens it moves through stages of differentiation, 'me and mine', becomes his immediate family group, his peer group, his community, his nation, etc in ever-widening circles of self-identification, trying as it were to "reunite" with himself with what seems lost within himself, having been thrust from the womb out into the world.

But what this, this paradise lost, is a way to symbolize what is happening within ourselves as we reach, not backward to an undifferentiated state (which in evolutionary terms would be a devolution, or movement towards death), but towards a realized Unity with the World, or God. He wants to go back to the womb, but cannot for that way is barred by death. He has to go forward instead into the Unknown. He doesn't want to cease to be, but to know consciousness Oneness with the womb that gave us birth. Not simply crawl back into it in an unconscious slumber. We as humans differentiate, and the find another and marry with them, the 'two become one' as it were. We are seeking marriage. We are seeking to evolve our differentiation from the world, into a differentiated unity with the world. That is the nondual experience, the unity of formless and form, not an undifferentiated, unconscious fusion with it.

Why does evolution, or life move us in this direction? Now isn't that the Heart of the Mystery itself?

I hope I did a better job of addressing your question this time. If not, well they're interesting thoughts anyway.

 

[Windwalker]

Why would any aspect of existence ever develop any perception of duality in an existence that is said to truly be non-dualistic? Why is there anything other than pure, monist, perfect enlightened awareness in existence?

I want to follow up to my other post right before this one this morning to underline what might have gotten missed in the details of it. Again, monism and nonduality are not the same things. Link: Not Duality is Not Non Duality | School of Yogic Buddhism

To be fused with and undifferentiated from the world is not the same thing as enlightenment. It is an unconscious slumber. You are completely unaware of a separate self, but not in the sense of unity with, but in the sense of asleep. Enlightenment is with the mind awakened. It is all about the experience of being in the world with your eyes wide opened, not shut.

Where we are at right now in an evolutionary way of looking at it, is well described by Plotinus, "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts." Unlike the beasts, we live with existential anxiety. We are aware of our state between the two, and we seek either escape from it through avoidance, or regression, or evolution. Enlightenment is the latter path.

 

[Willamena]

I'll open the question up to the whole thread.

Most religions have a narrative that explains the need and method to move from an imperfect/inferior state to a perfect/superior state. If a religion didn't have a narrative describing a movement from one state to another, it would basically just say, "You're perfect as you are, be on your way." Very few religions do that.

In Christianity, for example, the narrative is about moving from a state of original sin, via Jesus, to a state of salvation and eventually heaven. In Islam, the narrative is that life is a test, and a person's works and beliefs in this life will result in a heavenly or hellish afterlife.

In Dharmic religions, there are generally two related narratives. The first is the proposal that there is reincarnation or rebirth, and many realms, so people's actions lead them to various realms in this cycle of Samsara. Generally, you'd rather go up than down. The second is the proposal that there is duality, a lack of realized enlightenment, and that even in the best of realms, there will be dissatisfaction and impermanence. So that narrative is about moving from a state of being stuck in Samsara, stuck in duality, to achieving a state of Nirvana or Moksha.

So, religions generally have a narrative about moving from an undesirable state to a desirable state.

You cannot help "going up or down" on the wheel of samsara. Wheels turn. The way to "get off" the wheel is to recognize it for what it is: going up in relation to down, and going down in relation to up.

Duality is not an obstacle to enlightenment, nor can it be eliminated to achieve enlightenment--that would be like trying to go up by eliminating the other side of the wheel.

Nirvana is not a state that one attains, like attaining happiness. There is, however, a "desireable state" in dharmic religions. It is to know the Dharma.

The question to proponents of enlightenment here, is why is it that all of awareness in existence is not already in a state of pure, monist, ego-less, perfect, enlightenment?

It is; although from things you said earlier you consider "monist" to be an elimination of duality. It isn't. Non-duality cannot be eliminative without denying itself--that is an essential contradiction.

Why does the perception of duality exist anywhere in existence? Why is it that you and others find themselves as mammals in an illusionary world of dualism from which they must escape via meditating to eliminate the ego? What led you to ever have this problem, rather than having always existed as the enlightened state in which you currently attempt to develop? What makes you not perfect as you are?

Each of these questions is right, and so wrong as to be entirely backwards. Each can be answered with a denial and corrected with a negation. Such is duality.

As perfect as you are, do you feel you are missing some understanding? ...

 

[Leftimies]

I'll open the question up to the whole thread.


(....)


The question to proponents of enlightenment here, is why is it that all of awareness in existence is not already in a state of pure, monist, ego-less, perfect, enlightenment? Why does the perception of duality exist anywhere in existence? Why is it that you and others find themselves as mammals in an illusionary world of dualism from which they must escape via meditating to eliminate the ego? What led you to ever have this problem, rather than having always existed as the enlightened state in which you currently attempt to develop? What makes you not perfect as you are?

Perception of duality in the context Buddhism portrays it, in my opinion, is rooted in the fundamental desire that life carries. To bring a perhaps symbolical comparison: Abiogenesis can be seen as the event when desire came to be on Earth in our aeon. Abiogenesis is the natural process when organic compounds give birth to life: this is estimated to have occurred on Earth around 3.5 billion years ago. When genetic material took it upon itself to preserve its genetic material, and the alive molecules became self-replicating, the most primordial desire was born. This desire separated it from the surrounding inanimate fabric, which continues to dwell desire-less, even today, not knowing the slightest of suffering.

I don't know if eliminating ego really does the trick, or if it is possible; rather, maybe its about trying to become fully aware of ego and its agenda. Mindful about the ego, not ignorant of it. Also, the Zen doctrine teaches, at least I have come to so understand (God forbid if I am wrong lol), that all things have inherent buddha-nature, or buddha-mind. Even a tea-cup does. So its not as much about develop a certain state of mind, rather realize it. We all have buddha-mind, but far too few in all history have realized it.

Plenty of fetters make me imperfect. Plenty of desires: to not face unpleasant consequences, I have lied. I lied today. It was a small lie, with which I wanted to escape the responsibility of not having done my homework. As small as it may seem, it was a false testimony, a violation against Dharma. I desire luxury. This too is a fetter, and quite dishonorable one too. I am miles away from renouncing sensual pleasures - the hardest of them all for me. There are many more, beyond the aforementioned ones.

 

[Thief]

Dualism comes into existence when the human mind self identifies with the clay vehicle and perceives existence in terms of me and other than me.

And to further support this....?
You then deny...'yourself'.

So this unique experience having it's own face and name.....is a lie?

You're not really 'in there'...?
Nobody home?

 

[Penumbra]

In the Abrahamic tradition, the obstacle arises from the eating of the metaphorical fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the fall from non-dual awareness to that of duality through self identification with the body in finite time and space. But evolutionary wise, it was the development of individual self consciousness.

Where in Genesis is there anything about non-dualism?

The reason behind the fall is, first, so that the spirit of god breathed into the clay experiences existence as a separate point of consciousness and hence develops self awareness, albeit a limited egoic one.

Why do that?

And second, so that when it has reached the appropriate level of ego development, it can be integrated back into the pure spirit as an Angelic entity. Angel/Dharmaakaya/etc..

Why do something that requires being put back? Why not skip the first step?

All that exists has always existed, there was never a beginning, nor an end. The omnipresent, omniscient underlying unity is timeless. The eternal dance of duality/ying and yang/good and evil/etc., is maya, only perceived as duality/multiplicity by sentient beings, who, because of their limited design criteria, perceive just an infinitesimal part of actual existence, and imagine their senses and conceptualizations about reality in finite time sequence and local spacial environment is actual reality.

Beyond that, the questions about why it is this way doesn't arise, except in the mind of the unenlightened, absolute reality is just as it is, unspeakable glory beyong understanding,..the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow...

So the question is, in the timeless eternal existence, why do you exist as a mammal on this planet rather than already and always perceiving existence as part of a pure, monist, omniscience?

 

[Penumbra]

I must confess that I find myself mostly puzzled when people speak of dualism. I should also state that I have sincerely never meditated. However, I feel I can speak intelligently to your questions regarding awareness and enlightenment. If enlightenment is at the right end of the scale of awareness, it is ignorance that is on the left.

We were born into a world at war. From the first sentient lifeforms to appear on this planet until now, ignorance has been the cause and result all evil resulting in an unending war. Jesus of Nazareth is documented to have taught us that you are to "love our enemies", with a goal of seeing who we really are. He reasoned that if one could see past whatever earthly (and thus, illusory) circumstances has placed him at odds with another, he could see through the physical illusion and see at once that he is a Son (or Daughter) of God.

What do you believe is the root cause of ignorance in existence?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And to further support this....?

Originally Posted by ben d View Post
Dualism comes into existence when the human mind self identifies with the clay vehicle and perceives existence in terms of me and other than me.

You then deny...'yourself'.

So this unique experience having it's own face and name.....is a lie?

You're not really 'in there'...?
Nobody home?

Dear Thief*, you've totally lost me with this post, so please be patient and provide some details so it can be understood what your understanding is.
Thank you for your attention and patience.

Who said or implied anything about denying anything and where was it said?

What is this 'yourself' that you say is being denied?

What exactly is the lie associated with the unique ego experience?

What is the 'you' you are referring to that is not 'in there'?

Where is 'in there'?

What is the 'Nobody'?

What is the 'home' where nobody is?

PS. * Curious,..why the user name 'Thief'? Are you doing penance by labeling yourself so as to be publicly marked for dubious deeds done in the past prior to 'coming into the light'?

 

[Penumbra]

I want to follow up to my other post right before this one this morning to underline what might have gotten missed in the details of it. Again, monism and nonduality are not the same things. Link: Not Duality is Not Non Duality | School of Yogic Buddhism

To be fused with and undifferentiated from the world is not the same thing as enlightenment. It is an unconscious slumber. You are completely unaware of a separate self, but not in the sense of unity with, but in the sense of asleep. Enlightenment is with the mind awakened. It is all about the experience of being in the world with your eyes wide opened, not shut.

A Buddhist scripture, The Udana, states:

There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress.

How do you interpret that description compared to your description?

Where we are at right now in an evolutionary way of looking at it, is well described by Plotinus, "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts." Unlike the beasts, we live with existential anxiety. We are aware of our state between the two, and we seek either escape from it through avoidance, or regression, or evolution. Enlightenment is the latter path.

You mentioned the Buddha previously in this thread. In this post, you said, "It is all about the experience of being in the world with your eyes wide opened, not shut."

So here's a question: Where do you believe the Buddha is now? Is he in any world? Is he conscious? Is he experiencing pure oneness? Is he in oblivion? How do you interpret what his believers say happened to him, due to enlightenment? Maybe by using one person as an example, you can clarify your view of what enlightenment is.

 

[Penumbra]

You cannot help "going up or down" on the wheel of samsara. Wheels turn. The way to "get off" the wheel is to recognize it for what it is: going up in relation to down, and going down in relation to up.

That depends on which Dharmic system you're referring to. Many believe that moral actions determine whether you go up. In some systems, you attain liberation if you keep going upwards to ever higher levels, whereas in other systems, going up is kind of a trap, and it's better to be in a mediocre world so that one is influenced to focus on leaving Samsara.

Duality is not an obstacle to enlightenment, nor can it be eliminated to achieve enlightenment--that would be like trying to go up by eliminating the other side of the wheel.

Nirvana is not a state that one attains, like attaining happiness. There is, however, a "desireable state" in dharmic religions. It is to know the Dharma.

Why do you believe that all of existence does not already know the Dharma?

It is; although from things you said earlier you consider "monist" to be an elimination of duality. It isn't. Non-duality cannot be eliminative without denying itself--that is an essential contradiction.

Why do you believe that, in existence, there is something to do?

Each of these questions is right, and so wrong as to be entirely backwards. Each can be answered with a denial and corrected with a negation. Such is duality.

As perfect as you are, do you feel you are missing some understanding? ...

That depends from what perspective you're asking.

If you mean the views I hold now, then yes, everyone is missing some understanding, as mammals on this planet. But in that worldview, there is no enlightenment. There is, at best, a degree of wisdom within a finite lifespan. Some understanding is useful merely in the context of increasing one's meaning or happiness within that finite lifespan.

Alternatively, from the spiritual views I was raised with, there is no narrative of moving from one state to another. You're already there, and there is nothing to do, nothing to learn. You're perfect as you are. I've left that perspective behind, but still find it somewhat foreign and alien that religions provide a narrative, wherein people lack something or don't realize something, and must attain something. They assert that there is some problem, and that this problem is solved by some method, to reach some other state. To me that seems to propose that existence is somehow flawed, that beings are trying to rectify some less than ideal state of affairs.

 

[Penumbra]

Perception of duality in the context Buddhism portrays it, in my opinion, is rooted in the fundamental desire that life carries. To bring a perhaps symbolical comparison: Abiogenesis can be seen as the event when desire came to be on Earth in our aeon. Abiogenesis is the natural process when organic compounds give birth to life: this is estimated to have occurred on Earth around 3.5 billion years ago. When genetic material took it upon itself to preserve its genetic material, and the alive molecules became self-replicating, the most primordial desire was born. This desire separated it from the surrounding inanimate fabric, which continues to dwell desire-less, even today, not knowing the slightest of suffering.

I don't know if eliminating ego really does the trick, or if it is possible; rather, maybe its about trying to become fully aware of ego and its agenda. Mindful about the ego, not ignorant of it. Also, the Zen doctrine teaches, at least I have come to so understand (God forbid if I am wrong lol), that all things have inherent buddha-nature, or buddha-mind. Even a tea-cup does. So its not as much about develop a certain state of mind, rather realize it. We all have buddha-mind, but far too few in all history have realized it.

Plenty of fetters make me imperfect. Plenty of desires: to not face unpleasant consequences, I have lied. I lied today. It was a small lie, with which I wanted to escape the responsibility of not having done my homework. As small as it may seem, it was a false testimony, a violation against Dharma. I desire luxury. This too is a fetter, and quite dishonorable one too. I am miles away from renouncing sensual pleasures - the hardest of them all for me. There are many more, beyond the aforementioned ones.

It sounds to me that if ego was created from abiogenesis, then when you die, your ego will dissipate and you'll achieve the state you're looking for, back to where it was.

I don't believe the Buddhists at the time of the founding of the religion had an understanding of Earth's biological history, and within Buddhism there is the idea of rebirth, where a stream of consciousness continues as another life after the death of an individual. If there was no rebirth, then an individual would just have to live out her or his life, and that would be that. They'd return to the void. But instead, it seems there's this speculative process that hasn't so far been supported by biology, wherein a stream of consciousness is somehow kept separate even at death.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Where in Genesis is there anything about non-dualism?

Non-dualism is the state of enlightenment, the omnipresence of God. In a word G-d.

Why do that?

The pure 'raw' spirit that first incarnated in Adam did not have the self awareness of any highly evolved enlightened being, the enlightened state comes about after many incarnations (evolution)of spirit.

Why do something that requires being put back? Why not skip the first step?

To evolve appropriate spiritual self consciousness. An Angel is not the same thing as a nature spirit.

So the question is, in the timeless eternal existence, why do you exist as a mammal on this planet rather than already and always perceiving existence as part of a pure, monist, omniscience?

My spirit is what and who I really am, and is not a mammal on this planet, it is presently incarnate in human form for spiritual evolutionary purposes. It does sometimes leave this body and is preparing for permanent liberation from matter.

 

[YmirGF]

Alternatively, from the spiritual views I was raised with, there is no narrative of moving from one state to another. You're already there, and there is nothing to do, nothing to learn. You're perfect as you are. I've left that perspective behind, but still find it somewhat foreign and alien that religions provide a narrative, wherein people lack something or don't realize something, and must attain something. They assert that there is some problem, and that this problem is solved by some method, to reach some other state. To me that seems to propose that existence is somehow flawed, that beings are trying to rectify some less than ideal state of affairs.

In recent months this narrative seems more like a sales pitch in a marketing brochure.

"Try this amazing new product, follow the directions and you will become one of the beautiful people. Offer void where prohibited."

That said, for a topic that is so difficult to describe in verbal terms people are certainly talkative enough about it. It's almost like it ain't so special a state after all.

One expression that makes my skin crawl is when people talk about "Ultimate Reality". If you encountered an "ultimate reality" how could you possibly know that it was an "ultimate" anything? Are folks just given to starry-eyed extrapolation, sort of like a nifty new age-ish version of old fashioned "revelation" or are they simply pretending that their vision is unclouded?

But I do agree, the sales pitch is based on the premise that we are deeply flawed creatures that have to get over - well, what makes us what we are - in order to be who or what we are - or summin'. I'm assured it all makes sense, and in an airy fairy way it does if you accept the taint of either self, physical reality or both. Enlightenment, dovetailed with karma, in some ways, makes reality a very cruel joke.

At least in Creaturehood there are none of these problems. There is only change and growth, because that IS what we do. It's the way we are hardwired. Oh heck, what would I know?

 

[Leftimies]

It sounds to me that if ego was created from abiogenesis, then when you die, your ego will dissipate and you'll achieve the state you're looking for, back to where it was.

I don't believe the Buddhists at the time of the founding of the religion had an understanding of Earth's biological history, and within Buddhism there is the idea of rebirth, where a stream of consciousness continues as another life after the death of an individual. If there was no rebirth, then an individual would just have to live out her or his life, and that would be that. They'd return to the void. But instead, it seems there's this speculative process that hasn't so far been supported by biology, wherein a stream of consciousness is somehow kept separate even at death.

Well, how do you define rebirth? As Buddhism says, you do die when death comes upon you in the Western sense. Your memories, your identity, everything that makes you the person you are, will fall apart. The mind that exists when we are awake, dies. The mind that exists when we sleep, dies. Brain decomposes. Its more about new consciousness rising within the realm of reality.

How to put it...you are the universe, because between you, a tea-cup, and the galaxy of andromeda there is no difference - or, in the space between the three. Everything is made of the same substance which is infinite in nature and knows no bounds. An universe is a boson and a boson is an universe.

Thus, whenever a person dies within this realm of reality and another person is born, it really isn't a question of two separate events, but rather one big event. Both are inseparable. It is the very desire within the universe itself, which reincarnates, not you as a person. It may take different forms, like animals, bacteria, humans or viruses. But the desire remains same, within same cosmic realm.

Always remember: you are the universe experiencing itself. You can easily conceptualize this within your head by thinking about basic physics and chemistry; the tiny fragments making up your body are under constant change and reaction in regards to fragments making up the environment. Where does the border exist? It doesn't. You are not limited to your body or perceptive mind in a certain way of thinking.

 

[Windwalker]

A Buddhist scripture, The Udana, states:

There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress.

How do you interpret that description compared to your description?

I'll put another term to this that Paul Tillich used. The Ground of Being. It is that radical Emptiness out of which all form and distinctions arise, both the manifest and unmanifest. As someone rests in that Emptiness they are free from suffering, from the world of duality. It is the Causal domain. What some call Nirvana.

A good description that may be helpful in understanding this versus what nonduality is can be found here in these descriptions of the stages of meditation. Read the section on the Causal, in light of the above description, and compare it with the Nondual in the section that follows: http://integrallife.com/integral-post/stages-meditation

This said, the Ground of Being, the Source, I had mentioned before in this thread the schools of thought which say we are all already fully enlightened, which I would agree with in that this Source is who we are in manifest form, is what we are fused with in infancy. It is what has never not been there. The only difference is that which is already fully who we are, is unrealized. Not unattained. We can experience enlightenment in an instant, like a flash of lightening, and that would be untrue if it's something we aren't already! The difference is that our minds are constricted upon itself in our process of awakening to who we truly already always have been. It is that constriction what creates unawareness.

So the infant in my above example is 'aware' on a certain level of simple being of this fusion with this Absolute, or Ground of Being, or Emptiness, but not on a conscious level of an awakened mind. And neither are your average person as we grow from infancy to adulthood. We reach a certain point and become content in our ignorance. But at any moment, something allows us to pull back that veil, that curtain and see what has always been there and is us. We are only ever separate from it by way of our embrace of illusion, but through practice and repeated exposure to this with the conscious mind, we are able to know it with eyes wide open, as we letting go of all our clinging to our illusions which we see has holding promise of one sort or another. But we always know it with the unconscious mind. We know it with our being, just as all things that exist do.

You mentioned the Buddha previously in this thread. In this post, you said, "It is all about the experience of being in the world with your eyes wide opened, not shut."

So here's a question: Where do you believe the Buddha is now? Is he in any world? Is he conscious? Is he experiencing pure oneness? Is he in oblivion? How do you interpret what his believers say happened to him, due to enlightenment? Maybe by using one person as an example, you can clarify your view of what enlightenment is.

These are questions that came up in Mahayana Buddhism and the response to this was to come up with a formulation of the three-body doctrine, the Trikaya; the Nirmanakaya (the manifest, gross body form), the Sambhogakaya (the body of bliss), and the Dharmakaya (the body of eternal truth). This roughly corresponds with the great chain of being of body, soul, and spirit, and the Koshas, or 'sheaths' of Hinduism. Where is the Buddha now, if his body died, they asked. Where he was before he came in the flesh, so to speak. The Dhamakaya never dies, and is eternal. He went nowhere.

All that happens in a fully realized enlightenment in us, is that the center of gravity shifts in our self-awareness to Spirit, to the timeless, eternal, which has never not been fully who we are. We awaken to it and know Freedom or enlightenment.

 

[Willamena]

That depends on which Dharmic system you're referring to. Many believe that moral actions determine whether you go up. In some systems, you attain liberation if you keep going upwards to ever higher levels, whereas in other systems, going up is kind of a trap, and it's better to be in a mediocre world so that one is influenced to focus on leaving Samsara.

There is no avoiding the "down" side of a wheel. Perhaps these "perpetual up" systems use another icon. (Edit: a ladder, perhaps?)

Why do you believe that all of existence does not already know the Dharma?

I have a few thoughts about that.

Why do you believe that, in existence, there is something to do?

I don't understand the question. Do you mean a purpose? Something to accomplish by the end of life? What does this have to do with the topic of duality?

That depends from what perspective you're asking.

If you mean the views I hold now, then yes, everyone is missing some understanding, as mammals on this planet. But in that worldview, there is no enlightenment. There is, at best, a degree of wisdom within a finite lifespan. Some understanding is useful merely in the context of increasing one's meaning or happiness within that finite lifespan.

Alternatively, from the spiritual views I was raised with, there is no narrative of moving from one state to another. You're already there, and there is nothing to do, nothing to learn. You're perfect as you are. I've left that perspective behind, but still find it somewhat foreign and alien that religions provide a narrative, whereupon people lack something or don't realize something, and must attain something. They assert that there is some problem, and that this problem is solved by some method, to reach some other state. To me that seems to propose that existence is somehow flawed, that beings are trying to rectify some less than ideal state of affairs.

That's why I like Zen.

 

[Thief]

Dear Thief*, you've totally lost me with this post, so please be patient and provide some details so it can be understood what your understanding is.
Thank you for your attention and patience.

Who said or implied anything about denying anything and where was it said?

What is this 'yourself' that you say is being denied?

What exactly is the lie associated with the unique ego experience?

What is the 'you' you are referring to that is not 'in there'?

Where is 'in there'?

What is the 'Nobody'?

What is the 'home' where nobody is?

PS. * Curious,..why the user name 'Thief'? Are you doing penance by labeling yourself so as to be publicly marked for dubious deeds done in the past prior to 'coming into the light'?

Working from the notion of enlightened....
the very word implies....most of us ...aren't.

Some believe self denial leads to enlightenment.
Some people extend that unto others and consequently build fences.
That's not enlightened.

But how far to go with self denial?
All the way to say the self is an illusion?
Then this life is a lie.
This life was made to form unique spirit.
You were made to become 'you'.

I am Thief.
I steal the ignorance from my fellow man.
I take away his plea of ignorance.
Even as he watches me do so.....

I believe we will stand before the angelic.
No excuses. No saying we didn't know better.
We will stand as thieves.