Who Invented The Trinity ?

[joeboonda]

In Timothy it says all scriptures is profitable for doctrine. So the early church fathers got their doctrine from scripture. Jesus said I and the Father are one, and if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, and before Abraham was I AM, God told this to Moses when he asked who he should say sent him, and God said teill them I AM, or I AM that I Am sent you. I AM is commonly known as a name for God. Many scriptures prove the diety of Christ, and also the attributes of the Holy Spirit, like that the Holy Spirit caused Mary to be miraculously with child, with Jesus, who is called Immanuel, meaning God with us. There is so much more, but reading the Bible, and not any other books, one can clearly see that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are God, in different forms, like H20 can be water, ice, and vapor. It is a difficult concept, but the Bible, when you really study it shows this clearly.

 

[nutshell]

Starting with Christ. Otherwise, it's just your opinion against most of history.

~Victor

According to your interpretation.

 

[Quiddity]

According to your interpretation.

So now it's my interpretation? What happen to the Church apostocised?
Besides, I'm no alone...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22344

~Victor

 

[nutshell]

So now it's my interpretation? What happen to the Church apostocised?
Besides, I'm no alone...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22344

~Victor

You said "starting with Christ." What I meant be your interpretation is that it is only your interpretation of Christ's teachings that are consistant with Catholic doctrine. Just as it is my interpretation that show his teachings are consistant with LDS doctrine.

 

[nutshell]

For example, I don't remember a teaching starting with Christ about praying to St. Mary or any other saint. Where did this come from?

 

[Quiddity]

For example, I don't remember a teaching starting with Christ about praying to St. Mary or any other saint. Where did this come from?

Off topic, but praying to the Saints has it's roots in the OT.

~Victor

 

[Katzpur]

In Timothy it says all scriptures is profitable for doctrine. So the early church fathers got their doctrine from scripture.

Please provide some evidence that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on the scriptures. Where do the scriptures say the Father and the Son are a single substance? How many times do I have to ask the same question of you before you answer me, joeboonda? Or am I on your ignore list?

 

[Katzpur]

Off topic, but praying to the Saints has it's roots in the OT.

~Victor

Could you please provide some examples of this, Victor?

 

[Quiddity]

Could you please provide some examples of this, Victor?

Sure, here are some:


Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably. 2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

 

[Pah]

"Praying to the saints" does indeed seem to be off-topic

 

[spacemonkey]

Sure, here are some:


Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably. 2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

Not a single one of these says anything about a saint. In fact, sainthood is uniquely christian and has no roots in the OT.

 

[Quiddity]

Not a single one of these says anything about a saint. In fact, sainthood is uniquely christian and has no roots in the OT.

Off topic as Pah said. But thanks for spewing your ignorance.

~Victor

 

[Pah]

Off topic as Pah said. But thanks for spewing your ignorance.

~Victor

Perhaps it can be shown who indeed is the ignoramus in the thread "Old Testament justification for praying to the saints" http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23453

 

[joeboonda]

Please provide some evidence that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on the scriptures. Where do the scriptures say the Father and the Son are a single substance? How many times do I have to ask the same question of you before you answer me, joeboonda? Or am I on your ignore list?

Sorry, Katzpur, you're not on my ignore list. I just am not on here much due to busy life, and so do not always answer all questions, although I want to. Without going into to much quoting of scripture, I will just say the Father and Son are one, and also individual. Jesus forgave sins, and only God can forgive sins, one thing the Jewish leaders were upset with him over. Jesus said I and the Father are one and if you have seen me you have seen the father. Immanuel means God with us. God incarnate is a word we use, meaning God in the flesh. Jesus is called the only begotten son of God in John3:16, begotten, not made (created). Jesus equated himself with the father when he said before Abraham was, I AM. I AM is who God told Moses to tell who sent him. Many places in the NT, Jesus and God are said to be the same, like in the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God. In Colossians, chapter one, it says that Jesus who bought us with his blood created all things and all power is given to him, etc. read that if you will. I know of many more verses, and I can share them, but this will get too long. Most theologians, and teachers I have ever heard see and teach this and it is clear to me in the Bible, I dont know what to say, these three are one is all I know. I dont know everything about God's substance or whatever, I know his attributes based on the Bible, thats all, I dont really see what all the fuss is about I guess. Hope that helps somehow. Thanks.

 

[Katzpur]

Without going into to much quoting of scripture, I will just say the Father and Son are one, and also individual.

I'll go along with that. Would you mind elaborating on how they are individual?

Many places in the NT, Jesus and God are said to be the same, like in the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God. In Colossians, chapter one, it says that Jesus who bought us with his blood created all things and all power is given to him, etc. read that if you will.

Yes, I'm familiar with both verses, and I believe both of them. I see them as explaining the relationship between the Father and the Son -- not trying to explain that they are somehow the same individual. (But judging from the first paragraph I quoted, maybe that's not what you meant after all.)

I dont know everything about God's substance or whatever, I know his attributes based on the Bible, thats all, I dont really see what all the fuss is about I guess.

Maybe you could just tell me what you mean by the word "substance" then. Whether you know what God's substance is or not, I am more interested in knowing how you understand the word "substance." I know his attributes, based on the Bible, too. And I suspect you and I would pretty much agree on them.

Kathryn

 

[soma]

One God is revealed in three aspects in the Holy Trinity, which is an expansion of the rudimentary idea of God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the Generator, the Operator, and the Destroyer, God. The generator is the Father that creates the universe and the operator is the Holy Ghost, which is the energy that maintains creation. The destroyer is The Son who regains the all-pervading consciousness of God by sacrificing the physical life for the spiritual life.

http://thinkunity.com

 

[Ernestine]

The word "trinity" does not appear in any version of the Bible. The concept came into being about 350 years after the death of Jesus. Psalm 83:18, "That men may know that thou whose name is JEHOVAH art the most high over all the earth". Jesus is Jehovah's son and Jehovah's active force is his holy spirit. People confuse the scriptures by thinking at Jehovah, Jesus and the holy spirit are 3 in 1 or a trinity. As to origin, the book, Babylonian Life and History (Sir E.A. Wallis Budge, 1925), the pagans believed in such a thing and worshiped more than one trinity of gods.

 

[spacemonkey]

One God is revealed in three aspects in the Holy Trinity, which is an expansion of the rudimentary idea of God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the Generator, the Operator, and the Destroyer, God. The generator is the Father that creates the universe and the operator is the Holy Ghost, which is the energy that maintains creation. The destroyer is The Son who regains the all-pervading consciousness of God by sacrificing the physical life for the spiritual life.

http://thinkunity.com

This is very Hindu way of lookiing at it. Look fot your self...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_trinity

 

[soma]

There is one God so Christianity and Hinduism will have similar philosophies describing that all encompassing God.

 

[Popeyesays]

Every Revealed Religion (revealed in the Abrahamic sense) has a trinity explicit in its theology.

There is always a Giver of the Gift (God), The Gift (the Revelation, or Holy Spirit) and the Receiver of the Gift (the Prophet or Revealer). This holds true whether its Abraham, Moses, Krshna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Noah, Jesus, Muhammed, the Bab or Baha`u'llah.

This concept does not commit the error of chopping God into equal pieces or multiplying Him.

Regards,
Scott