Thief
Rogue Theologian
And if the clay never holds anything.....there was no point in making the vessel.
"YOU" are made of clay....knock.... knock....knock
Are 'you' in there?
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Who is God?
- Thread starter enchanted_one1975
- Start date
And if the clay never holds anything.....there was no point in making the vessel.
"YOU" are made of clay....knock.... knock....knock
Are 'you' in there?
godnotgod
Thou art That
"God is absolute nothingness. However, if one says that God is merely nothingness, this is certainly not so. At the base of the establishment of reality there is the unifying function which clearly cannot be moved.
God
is the basis of reality, and only because He [IT] is able to be Nothingness, is there no place whatsoever where He [IT] is not.
It [nothingness] springs from your laboring thinking, and you find ' enlightenment. The Universe is being nothing, and the Ego has become nothing. But in the same spark of Nothingness you regain the world and yourself in wonderful self-identity.
In the experience of Nothingness, everything is as it is.
In one who is really overwhelmed by the consciousness of absolute nothingness, there is neither 'Me' nor 'God,' but just because there is absolute nothingness, the mountain is mountain, and the water is water, and the being is as it is."
God is at once Being-itself and Absolute Nothingness.
As the Christian mystics state, 'God is Nothing' He [IT] is Utterly Other; He [IT] is the VOID.' Eckhart proclaims, 'Thou shalt love God as He [IT] is, a Non-God, a Non-Spirit, a Non-Person, a Non-Form.'
.... 'The divine darkness, the nameless, formless nothing.' [ie: 'Tao']
In Jewish mysticism we find frequent reference to the conception of God as Nothing.
It is when these mystics proceed to making affirmative statements about the nature of God that misevaluation occurs.
God cannot exist in the sense that we normally mean existence. As with things, whatever we say God is, he is not."
'Nothing is Sacred', by Alan Gullette
Nothing is Sacred; Or, The Concept of Nothing in Zen by Alan Gullette
Any attempt to name God is an attempt to encapsulate him [IT], to make him Something; in other words, to create him, but God is not subject to creation and destruction. He is the Unborn, the Uncreated....the Un-Nameable.
It [nothingness] springs from your laboring thinking, and you find ' enlightenment. The Universe is being nothing, and the Ego has become nothing. But in the same spark of Nothingness you regain the world and yourself in wonderful self-identity.
In the experience of Nothingness, everything is as it is.
In one who is really overwhelmed by the consciousness of absolute nothingness, there is neither 'Me' nor 'God,' but just because there is absolute nothingness, the mountain is mountain, and the water is water, and the being is as it is."
God is at once Being-itself and Absolute Nothingness.
As the Christian mystics state, 'God is Nothing' He [IT] is Utterly Other; He [IT] is the VOID.' Eckhart proclaims, 'Thou shalt love God as He [IT] is, a Non-God, a Non-Spirit, a Non-Person, a Non-Form.'
.... 'The divine darkness, the nameless, formless nothing.' [ie: 'Tao']
In Jewish mysticism we find frequent reference to the conception of God as Nothing.
It is when these mystics proceed to making affirmative statements about the nature of God that misevaluation occurs.
God cannot exist in the sense that we normally mean existence. As with things, whatever we say God is, he is not."
'Nothing is Sacred', by Alan Gullette
Nothing is Sacred; Or, The Concept of Nothing in Zen by Alan Gullette
Any attempt to name God is an attempt to encapsulate him [IT], to make him Something; in other words, to create him, but God is not subject to creation and destruction. He is the Unborn, the Uncreated....the Un-Nameable.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Whether it ends up holding anything or not is not the point. The point is that it CAN hold something, and it CAN only because of the quality of nothingness.
"Oh, my God! It's empty, and it's full of stars!"
2001: A Space Odyssey
godnotgod
Thou art That
Yes. Negate negation itself.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
If nothingness does not exist, then somethingness also cannot exist, since we understand that something is real against the field of no-thing. Still, we are here speaking of relative nothingness/somethingness. I was referring to Absolute Nothingness, in which there is neither existence, nor non-existence.
How is that known? Guide me please.
godnotgod
Thou art That
The mind must first return to its original empty state.
Nothingness cannot be "known" with the thinking mind, as it is non-conceptual.
*****
*The Lost Pearl*
The Yellow Emperor went wandering
To the north of the Red Water
To the Kwan Lun mountain. He looked
around
Over the edge of the world. On the way
home
He lost his night-colored pearl*.
He sent out Science to seek his pearl,
and got nothing.
He sent Analysis to look for his pearl,
and got nothing.
He sent out Logic to seek his pearl,
and got nothing.
Then he asked Nothingness, and
Nothingness had it!
The Yellow Emperor said:
Strange, indeed: Nothingness
Who was not sent
Who did no work to find it
Had the night-colored pearl!
from The Way of Chuang Tzu, trans Merton
*Night-colored pearl: original nature; spiritual enlightenment
Hi Godnotgod
How can the non-conceptual mind "know" nothing?
I don't dispute that the mind is conceptual, nor do I dispute that the mind can becomes thoughtless.
Can the empty mind know the absence of concepts against its own apirori knowingness? If so is our knowingness really nothing i.e. non-existance?
The story uses nothingness to show that there is something which could be lost/missed i.e. the night-coloured pearl, but it doesn’t mean that it is not a thing, nor that:
Nor does it support:
Nothingness exists in its relativity to something else. Nothingness depends 100% on something.
Without using imagination, how can I be convinced that something, anything can come from nothing?
I am sincere in my quest, as this perhaps answers Who is God in general along with why He has no name (op). If not then it will help Onkarah more than you may know.
Onkarah.
How can the non-conceptual mind "know" nothing?
I don't dispute that the mind is conceptual, nor do I dispute that the mind can becomes thoughtless.
Can the empty mind know the absence of concepts against its own apirori knowingness? If so is our knowingness really nothing i.e. non-existance?
Thank you Godnotgod, but in this story “nothingness” is used to symbolise something without anything else i.e. original nature; spiritual enlightenment as it says above. This is neti-neti, when the search ends Truth is revealed standing there all the time... timelessly.
The story uses nothingness to show that there is something which could be lost/missed i.e. the night-coloured pearl, but it doesn’t mean that it is not a thing, nor that:
Nor does it support:
Nothingness exists in its relativity to something else. Nothingness depends 100% on something.
Without using imagination, how can I be convinced that something, anything can come from nothing?
I am sincere in my quest, as this perhaps answers Who is God in general along with why He has no name (op). If not then it will help Onkarah more than you may know.
Onkarah.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
I think the key to the story is the statement that:
"Nothingness
Who was not sent
Who did no work to find it
Had the night-colored pearl!"
Nothing was ever "lost" from the very beginning.
The night-colored pearl is always to be found within Nothingness.
This story also illustrates the principle of non-action as a means of achieving something.
(I will take a closer look at your other, very good questions later. Thank you!)
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That is an interesting difference. We are limited by language in that "had" implies possession or situation. E.g. The river had water. For nothingness to "have or had" a thing it must be something, similar to a river, which when without water is little more than contours in the land. In other words, even the river must have some support (although the support is invisble to the human brain due to the water).
Nothingness must be something to support enlightenment (pearl). Correct?
I am in total agreement there, it is the mind which asks "how to do non-action" is it not.
(I will take a closer look at your other, very good questions later. Thank you!)[/quote]
Please do.
We need to prove that nothingness can exist independently of anything/something else that is the challange.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
the pearl is a recurring motif ....
it is of course akin to the philosophers stone and the grail
The Gnostics and Indian Christians of course look to the Pearl int he apocryphal Acts of thomas texts in which the hymn of the pearl exists, a song/hymn written/sung about finding a pearl
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Please do.That is an interesting difference. We are limited by language in that "had" implies possession or situation. E.g. The river had water. For nothingness to "have or had" a thing it must be something, similar to a river, which when without water is little more than contours in the land. In other words, even the river must have some support (although the support is invisble to the human brain due to the water).
Nothingness must be something to support enlightenment (pearl). Correct?
I am in total agreement there, it is the mind which asks "how to do non-action" is it not.
(I will take a closer look at your other, very good questions later. Thank you!)
We need to prove that nothingness can exist independently of anything/something else that is the challange.[/quote]I would say the pearl is the true self....
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
reflection for July 25, 2007: pearls « Prayers and Reflections
The notion of original sin, especially, departs from Gnosticism in its assumption that there could be something wrong or ungodly about any kind of knowledge . The Gnostics held just the opposite view. For example, in the Book of Thomas the Contender, one of the texts discovered at Nag Hammadi and thought to have been written in the second century, the Saviour tells his disciple Thomas, “He who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of all.” In other words, when you become one with (“know” the God within, you will have become one with all that is. The following Gnostic story based on the Gnostic Hymn of the Pearl, also found at Nag Hammadi, expands on this principle and illustrates several other core beliefs:
“Imagine you are a prince. One day your parents, the King and Queen, send you on a mission to Egypt. You must find a pearl guarded by a hungry dragon.
You take off your royal robe and leave the kingdom of your parents.
You journey into Egypt, putting on dirty clothing and disguising yourself as an Egyptian.
Somehow the Egyptians discover that you are a foreigner. They give you food that makes you forget your royal birth and makes you believe that you are one of them. You sink into a deep sleep.
Your parents see your plight and send you a letter that tells you to awaken. It reminds you of your quest to recover the pearl. You remember who you are, a child of kings. You quickly subdue the dragon, recover the pearl and depart, leaving the dirty clothing behind.
When you return to your native land, you see your royal robe, which reminds you of the splendor you lived in before. The garment speaks to you, telling you that it belongs to the one who is stronger than all human beings. You put on your royal robe once more and return to your father’s palace.”
http://www.essene.com/EarlyChurch/OrthodoxFromGnostic/The_Wheel.htm
This is essentially the story of Buddha, Christ and others...
The notion of original sin, especially, departs from Gnosticism in its assumption that there could be something wrong or ungodly about any kind of knowledge . The Gnostics held just the opposite view. For example, in the Book of Thomas the Contender, one of the texts discovered at Nag Hammadi and thought to have been written in the second century, the Saviour tells his disciple Thomas, “He who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of all.” In other words, when you become one with (“know”
the God within, you will have become one with all that is. The following Gnostic story based on the Gnostic Hymn of the Pearl, also found at Nag Hammadi, expands on this principle and illustrates several other core beliefs: “Imagine you are a prince. One day your parents, the King and Queen, send you on a mission to Egypt. You must find a pearl guarded by a hungry dragon.
You take off your royal robe and leave the kingdom of your parents.
You journey into Egypt, putting on dirty clothing and disguising yourself as an Egyptian.
Somehow the Egyptians discover that you are a foreigner. They give you food that makes you forget your royal birth and makes you believe that you are one of them. You sink into a deep sleep.
Your parents see your plight and send you a letter that tells you to awaken. It reminds you of your quest to recover the pearl. You remember who you are, a child of kings. You quickly subdue the dragon, recover the pearl and depart, leaving the dirty clothing behind.
When you return to your native land, you see your royal robe, which reminds you of the splendor you lived in before. The garment speaks to you, telling you that it belongs to the one who is stronger than all human beings. You put on your royal robe once more and return to your father’s palace.”
http://www.essene.com/EarlyChurch/OrthodoxFromGnostic/The_Wheel.htm
This is essentially the story of Buddha, Christ and others...
Thank you Mr Cheese
Your point here and in the story is true and helpful.
IT is the pearl, one can add ideas to it, and IT still remains as pearl. I add knowingness, beingness and bliss as that is the experience of IT. However the problem lies that those who have not come to know it find that their minds chase the ideas, words and names and in doing so miss the pearl.
This is why God has no name.
Once the pearl is known there is no longer any reason to discard, instead all can be embraced afresh, including ideas, emotions, and anything else which happens to arise.
In all of Onkarah's lives he has never experienced nothingness as something indpendent in itself. All exists in the reflection of the Pearl.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Thank you Mr Cheese
Your point here and in the story is true and helpful.
IT is the pearl, one can add ideas to it, and IT still remains as pearl. I add knowingness, beingness and bliss as that is the experience of IT. However the problem lies that those who have not come to know it find that their minds chase the ideas, words and names and in doing so miss the pearl.
This is why God has no name.
Once the pearl is known there is no longer any reason to discard, instead all can be embraced afresh, including ideas, emotions, and anything else which happens to arise.
In all of Onkarah's lives he has never experienced nothingness as something indpendent in itself. All exists in the reflection of the Pearl.
I think the pearl is nothingness...divine nothingess....
I dont think its a matter of existing independatly...clearly this never occurs
If we look to any form of mysticism we find that the ultimate is emptiness, nothingness...
Perhaps this is because we are emptied....
In certain traditions the "goal" or one of them is to become a vessel...
Indeed as a self proclaimed grail seeker..this is my "goal"....
In Jewish mysticism we have the idea that all things are light and vessels...give (light) and receive (vessels)
Further one of the meanings of the word Theurgy..is "to become like a hollow reed"
for is this not the path of the mystic...to awaken the temple not built with hands....ready for it to be filled....
so that there no longer exists "me" or a cup, or wine....there is nothing....
In kabbalah this is is clearly seen as Ain or Ein (sof)..endless..endless light
ain
Of course, once we are nothing...arguably you have to do somethign once you are nothing though.....
to awaken...and to serve
but I am sure you already know all opf this, judging by your posts
......................
Kabbalah teaches that before and after any manifestation, there is emptiness, before and after any being, there is emptiness. Try this principal truth by listening to your own breathing: before inhalation, there is emptiness in your lungs, after exhalation, there is also emptiness in your lungs. Remember the name of God? Ehyeh asher Ehyeh - the sound of your breath, the sound of emptiness. Ayn Sof is the quality of Keter, the Crown and first sefira. Ayn Sof is the emptiness from which all things are born and to which all things return. Ayn Sof is the beginning and end of everything. It is thus the primordial ground of being into which the roots of the Tree of Life are sunk, roots buried in emptiness, because everything that is must go through the cycle of the ten sefirot before returning to emptiness. Ayn Sof is what comes before everything else, and it is generally drawn at the head of the Tree, a stand alone sefira from which all manifestation flows.
Emptiness, the energy of the Crown sefira, is not a static, gray, and dull place of death. Think of this emptiness as the most fertile ground. Think of the empty darkness of a womans womb before impregnation. Think of the darkest night of the year, deep in winter, before the light increases to lead the natural cycle to the fullness and ripeness of spring. Think of the quiet, still place you reach in meditation, before your soul starts speaking to you and revealing the mysteries of the universe. This emptiness is eternal, outside boundaries of time, space, and events.
Emptiness is what lies behind you, past events in your life that are but memories, but fragrances of flowers bloomed and faded. Emptiness is what lies before you, future events not yet known, lands yet to be explored. Emptiness is the present, it is you right now.
- Avram Davis & Manuela Dunn Mascetti (Judaic Mysticism)
Hi Mr Cheese
Here is another take on it for fun....
When one arrives at nothingness IT begins to fill again. "Again" is an illusioary word as there is no change except with the perception of time. Anyway, the point is that there is no nothing, there never was. IT is full, so full. The paradox is that we must remove all to arrive at the turning point which the mystics call "nothing", only to then find that everything was IT in the first place.
After awakening the whole universe becomes one. There is no seperation. There is no-body to serve or to help, no-thing to do as all is being done... blah blah, you know
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Let me throw that with a slight spin.....
'Again' might not be a passing of time.
How about a change in perspective?
( I don't believe in time).
This 'time', I am Thief.
Next 'time', I am Fellow Servant.
Then 'again', Rogue Theologian.
As 'time' passes by these various incarnations would be 'me', but without the grave to stop me.
I happen to believe in life after death.
Without death, incarnations can repeat, or change.
Today I steal your plea of ignorance.
Tomorrow I will help you rebuild your loss.
Death can take hold.... only if you fail to change.
'Again' might not be a passing of time.
How about a change in perspective?
( I don't believe in time).
This 'time', I am Thief.
Next 'time', I am Fellow Servant.
Then 'again', Rogue Theologian.
As 'time' passes by these various incarnations would be 'me', but without the grave to stop me.
I happen to believe in life after death.
Without death, incarnations can repeat, or change.
Today I steal your plea of ignorance.
Tomorrow I will help you rebuild your loss.
Death can take hold.... only if you fail to change.