Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

[anthony55]

sherm:

So you're saying that you can take verse 20 and not even concern yourself with the context of 19.

Where did I say that ? You evidently cannot read.

 

[Shermana]

sherm:



Where did I say that ? You evidently cannot read.

You said that it doesn't alter the context of verse 20.

Please explain in your own words what you meant when you said that verse 19 doesn't affect the context of verse 20

1 Jn 5:19 is fine, but it does not tell me not to believe what is written in vs 20..

I think any objective reader can see that you directly are saying that 5:19 doesn't tell you anything about verse 20 in terms of context.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

dp:



In case you haven't noticed, we are not discussing Jn 17:3 right now, bit what 1 Jn 5:20 states.

But the OP asked

Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

And the biblical Yeshua said his god was life eternal and the true god. 1John 5:20 is a confirmation as to what the biblical Yeshua said. Your interpertation would have us to believe that it is supposedly saying Yeshua is the (eternal life) being discussed or that he is the god that is being discussed and it isn't which is why I broke the verse down for you.

1John 5:20
And we (the faithful) know that the Son (Yeshua) of God (his god YHWH) is come, and hath given us (the faithful) an understanding, that we (the faithful) may know him (YHWH) that is true (see John 17:21), and we (the faithful) are in him (YHWH - see John 17:21) that is true, even in his (YHWH's) son Yeshua Ha Mashiach. This (YHWH) is the true god, and eternal life.

John17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true god, and Yeshua Ha Mashiac, whom you have sent.

1John 5:20 is no mystery when cross-referenced to what Yeshua is attributed to saying.

John 17:21
That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Take note that he, in his prayer to his god, maintains he is separate from his god.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1 Jn 5:20 still stands as True, its a Apostolic Testimony that Jesus the Son is being recognized as the True God and Eternall Life. 1 Jn 5:
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
John uses the conjunction kai which means :

1. and, also, even, indeed, butHe is stating that Jesus Christ is the True God , also Eternal Eternal Life.

Now He had Just stated earlier in the epistle that Jesus Christ was that Eternal Life with the Father, notice 1 Jn 1:
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us )
Now He merely combines the Two at the end of His Epistle, designating Him both the True God and Eternal Life.
Its basically the same thing He did in His epistle in John 1:1-2
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.
Either we accept the plain teaching of scripture or we do not.

Scripture was Not originally written in English.
At the time of KJV there were only a few manuscripts available to compare.
The original Scriptures were written mostly in Hebrew and Greek.

Why is there the letter 'a' between 'was' and 'god' at Acts 28v6 B ?
Because Greek grammar rules apply there.
That same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1v1.
The word was 'a' God.

Isaiah calls Jesus as: Mighty God.
No where in Scripture is Jesus called: Almighty God.

'God' is a title and not a personal name. -[2nd Cor 4v4]
What is the answer to the last question at Proverbs 30 v4 ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The JWs have the right version of John 1:1, (and Acts 10:33), "And the word was a god".
Daniel Wallace says it should be "Divine" and I think it possibly can, but the context is to show separation and to demonstrate ideas similar to Philo's concept of Logos which were mainstay in Greek Anatolia.
Angels are called "gods" such as in Psalms 136:2, or even "sons of God". (Angels are called Sons of God...wait....I thought Jesus is Son of God....)
It seems you are intent on ignoring 1 John 5:19 which clearly defines the context of 5:20. You have to include the whole passage into each verse for consideration.

I think besides 1st John 5vs19,20, at John 17v3 Jesus mentions two [2].
This is life eternal, that they might know you [knowledge of] the only true God 'and' Jesus Christ. 'And' shows conjunction between two [2] persons.
Like the two [2] persons at Proverbs 30v4 B,
and the two [2] LORD/Lord's at Psalm 110v1.

'sons of God' and 'Son of God' are two different things.
The angels [Gen 6vs2,4; Job 1v6; 2v1; 38v7] are 'sons' [all lower case letters]
Even Adam was son of God. -Luke 3v38 [lower case]
Jesus on the other hand, is the 'Son of God' with Son having an upper case 'S'.

Jesus is also unique in that Jesus is the only Son that is: 'only begotten'.
All other creation comes through pre-human Jesus as God's only-begotten Son.
-Col 1vs15,16; Rev 3v14 B

 

[Shermana]

I think besides 1st John 5vs19,20, at John 17v3 Jesus mentions two [2].
This is life eternal, that they might know you [knowledge of] the only true God 'and' Jesus Christ. 'And' shows conjunction between two [2] persons.
Like the two [2] persons at Proverbs 30v4 B,
and the two [2] LORD/Lord's at Psalm 110v1.

'sons of God' and 'Son of God' are two different things.
The angels [Gen 6vs2,4; Job 1v6; 2v1; 38v7] are 'sons' [all lower case letters]
Even Adam was son of God. -Luke 3v38 [lower case]
Jesus on the other hand, is the 'Son of God' with Son having an upper case 'S'.

Jesus is also unique in that Jesus is the only Son that is: 'only begotten'.
All other creation comes through pre-human Jesus as God's only-begotten Son.
-Col 1vs15,16; Rev 3v14 B

I agree with your earlier post, though the angels are indeed called "gods" though without even the "sons of" in Psalm 136:2 . I agree Jesus as the Logos was the Highest of the Angels ,and that he was the Chief Foreman of Creation as Philo regarded the Logos as.

Also, correction: I Meant John 10:33, not acts 10:33. "You make yourself out to be a god".

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Thank you for your reply Shermana.

Continuing at John [10v34] I notice Jesus answers in reference to: Psalm 82v6.
[Human judges were also considered as gods. [Exodus 7v1]
Then John [10v36] brings to our attention the reason why the Jews were saying Jesus blasphemed is because Jesus said, " I am the Son of God".

 

[anthony55]

You said that it doesn't alter the context of verse 20.

Please explain in your own words what you meant when you said that verse 19 doesn't affect the context of verse 20

I think any objective reader can see that you directly are saying that 5:19 doesn't tell you anything about verse 20 in terms of context.

I have said what I said, vs 19 says nothing about altering vs 20. vs 19m says what it says, vs 20 says what it says, which states Jesus is the True God. 1 Jn 5:


19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[anthony55]

dp:

But the OP asked
Quote:
Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?

Jesus there was stating that His Father was the Only True God , which I agee. But in 1 Jn 5:20, John states that Jesus Christ is the only True God, which I agree.

Your problem is that in John 17:3, Jesus did not state that He was not the only True God.

 

[Shermana]

dp:



Jesus there was stating that His Father was the Only True God , which I agee. But in 1 Jn 5:20, John states that Jesus Christ is the only True God, which I agree.

Your problem is that in John 17:3, Jesus did not state that He was not the only True God.

Verse 5:20 says that the Father is the subject in question when you actually read it in context of verse 19. You can make the Bible say a lot of things if you take each verse selectively away from the rest of the passage.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have said what I said, vs 19 says nothing about altering vs 20. vs 19m says what it says, vs 20 says what it says, which states Jesus is the True God. 1 Jn 5:
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Why do you have is the 'true' in bold type only once when verse 20 says true more than once?

Jesus gives us an understanding that we may know 'him' that is: 'true'.
Who is the 'him'?

"We are in him that is true' does that mean we are in God ?

 

[Shermana]

Here Anthony, examine the whole passage in detail.

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

In HIS son, Jesus Christ. The HIS is the factor, not necessarily "Jesus Christ", if you say that it can't possibly be the "His" who is the "God" in reference, well, you're wrong.

If one insists that the subject is necessarily about Jesus instead of whomever is "His" Father, well, that's just standard Trinitarian logic I guess. Can you at least go halfway and say that it's possible that the subject is whomever the "His" is?

 

[anthony55]

sherm:

Here Anthony, examine the whole passage in detail.

That does not alter vs 20..

 

[anthony55]

ur:

Why do you have is the 'true' in bold type only once when verse 20 says true more than once?

Dumb question..

 

[Shermana]

sherm:



That does not alter vs 20..

Sure it does, it explains who the subject is. The subject is even explained in verse 19, the "His". Chapter 5 is almost entirely about the Father, only verse 20 really mentions Yashua and as a tool of his work.

 

[anthony55]

sherm:

Sure it does,

No it does not.

 

[waitasec]

sherm:



No it does not.

just because you disagree doesn't change anything...
unless of course, you're the sort of person who insists you can walk through walls.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

in 1 Jn 5:20, John states that Jesus Christ is the only True God, which I agree.

It does not. Your problem is with context. I've given you the context of 1 Jn. 5:20 by laying out who John is talking about...and how that relates to what the biblical Yeshua believed.

Your problem is that in John 17:3, Jesus did not state that He was not the only True God.

So what now you want us to assume by looking at 17:3 that he could be...?

That's not what 17:3 reveals. He makes a clarification as to who is who.

'You are the true god and I am the anointed one whom you have sent'

Anything else you read into that is speculation on your part.

 

[anthony55]

dp:

It does not.

Yes it does. 1 Jn 5:20

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

So what now you want us to assume by looking at 17:3 that he could be...?

I don't see any statement of Christ here in Jn 17:3 denying that He is the True God. In fact, He tacitly suggests His Oneness with the Father as the only True God by Naming Himself with Him. Jn 14:1

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes it does. 1 Jn 5:20

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

You put emphasis on one part of the verse. By doing that you disrupt the context of the verse. John makes it clear who (him that is true) is. We know this because it's separated by the use of the (even) in the verse. You will find that word being used in this manner in five places before (1John 5:20) and in two other places after (1John 5:20). It's rendered as (even) because it conjoins two separate entities. If you understood this Greek rule you wouldn't make the mistake in thinking that the English gives credence to Yeshua being the true god. Besides this, the verse, even in the English, is very easy to understand. It's not telling you that Yeshua is the one true god. It makes a distinction.

1John 5:20
And we (the faithful) know that the Son (Yeshua) of God (his god YHWH) is come, and hath given us (the faithful) an understanding, that we (the faithful) may know him (YHWH) that is true (see John 17:3), and we (the faithful) are in him (YHWH - see John 17:21) that is true, even in his (YHWH's) son Yeshua Ha Mashiach. This (YHWH) is the true god, and eternal life.

I don't see any statement of Christ here in Jn 17:3 denying that He is the True God.

John 17:3 tells the reader that life eternal is to know that YHWH is the true god and to know that "God" sent Yeshua. In order to be sent there must be a sender. He makes the distinction that there is a god who is true and this god sent him. That's pretty much it. He doesn't have to explicitly deny being the true god. The reader should be able to get that when he says ('life eternal is to know that YOU are the true god')....

In fact, He tacitly suggests His Oneness with the Father as the only True God by Naming Himself with Him. Jn 14:1

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

I have no problem with the verse. What's incorrect is your interpretation and your lack of knowledge of the Greek being used. What you have in that verse is (also). It's another conjunction that makes a distinction between two entities. This is clarified in verse 23.

John 14:23
Yeshua replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

At this point no reader should be under the misconception that the biblical Yeshua believed or taught that he was "God".