Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

[Aupmanyav]

.. 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."
(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

So, Bahais believe that Jeus was not son of God and that he was also not the son of Joseph. That puts us in a quandary. Who was Jesus' father?

This was just a quick response to Truthseeker9 to point out how some prophecies are fulfilled literally..
In order to understand how these events fulfilled the Bible prophecies you have to read Thief in the Night by William Sears

What you wrote was absolute boolsheet. Give me a sensible snapshot of what William Seers wrote. Then I may have some interest in reading it. Why should I waste my time on reading these senseless explanations?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I see the Father is not God in Essence. I see the Father is Christ returned as the Glory of God, Baha'u'llah. I see this is the 'Day of Jehovah'.

".. Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the "Lord of Hosts" and the "King of Glory." To Him Haggai had referred as the "Desire of all nations," and Zachariah as the "Branch" Who "shall grow up out of His place," and "shall build the Temple of the Lord." Ezekiel had extolled Him as the "Lord" Who "shall be king over all the earth," while to His day Joel and Zephaniah had both referred as the "day of Jehovah," the latter describing it as "a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers." His Day Ezekiel and Daniel had, moreover, both acclaimed as the "day of the Lord,".... "

Regards Tony

Oh, guess I misunderstood....sorry.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, guess I misunderstood....sorry.

I would say it is more like you have not heard the explanations I have posted, not that you have misunderstood.

Jesus the Christ to me is an inseperable part of the 'Ancient Beauty' and I see has returned as the Father.

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. – Mark 8:38.

I see we can not know God, but by the Manifestation of Christ, the 'Anointed One' who is now come as the Father.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What you wrote was absolute boolsheet. Give me a sensible snapshot of what William Seers wrote. Then I may have some interest in reading it. Why should I waste my time on reading these senseless explanations?

It is a choice we make. To me, who had no faith and was not looking for any faith, that book changed my life.

It is what opened the door to the Faith I have embraced.

Basically William Sears explored the Prophecy of the Old and New Testament and showed how they were all applicable to Baha'u'llah with simple logic.

Personally I do not recommend you read it, I do not think it is for you.

I think you would enjoy a book called 'God Loves Laughter' by the same Author.

I hope you are safe from covoid-19 and all is well.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

I see that Jesus the Christ taught that the flesh amounts to nothing, that he would send another who would come in a New Name.

As such, I would think that no one should be expecting the same Jesus to return, but the same spirit of Christ that was the reality of Jesus.

Regards Tony

No one should be expecting the flesh and blood of Jesus to return, true. But the resurrected Jesus was not flesh and blood. As scripture says, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50).

The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, is sent from heaven and unites the body, the Church. This body is the 'bride', for which the groom returns at the time of the marriage feast, the second coming.

The groom is also the Lamb of Revelation (5:12, for example). The fact that he is recognised as the Lamb demonstrates that it is Jesus and not some other 'spirit of Christ'.

Imagine the confusion, and possibility for deception, were Christ not recognisable!

The thing that distinguishes the 'head' from the 'body' is that Jesus was sinless and the only begotten Son. He was given the Holy Spirit without measure. The rest of the body are 'adopted' through faith in Christ. As l understand the scriptures, each individual within the body receives the Spirit of Christ by measure of their faith and opportunity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is a choice we make. To me, who had no faith and was not looking for any faith, that book changed my life.
Basically William Sears explored the Prophecy of the Old and New Testament and showed how they were all applicable to Baha'u'llah with simple logic.
Personally I do not recommend you read it, I do not think it is for you.
I think you would enjoy a book called 'God Loves Laughter' by the same Author.

Thanks Tony. That sort of decides it. You know what I think of these superstitious lies. I do not understand how they could have changed your views, but apparently they did. You may not talk about logic when you talk of prophecies and their fulfillment. These things are beyond logic and defy it. They are not for me, though they may be good for Bahais.
Yeah, Covid-19 is somewhat on the wane in Delhi and everyone in my family is safe till now. Thanks for asking.
And Allah / God does not like laughter, otherwise he might not have created hell. Mohammad forbade laughter for Muslims. He said they could better spend time in praising Allah and seeking his mercy. I know, Bahais say there is no hell, but I have read how Bahaollah implored Allah to punish those who did not believe in Allah and in Bahaollah being a manifestation of Allah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, Covid-19 is somewhat on the wane in Delhi and everyone in my family is safe till now. Thanks for asking.

I wish you and family always well and happy.

I am the only person in all my family and extended family to accept the Faith to date, and same with my wife.

My best friends have never embraced the Faith, but offer they see the merit in many of the values it teaches.

Such is life on this planet we share, and I see we need to all start to learn how to look after it, and each other.

Regards Tony

 

[Kenny]

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah.

BINGO!! That is one of the reasons we are believers!

Those verses you cited above do refer to Jesus as the Son of man. That is apparent from the context, but the verses below are not Jesus referring to Himself as the Son of man, as it is clear from the context that Jesus is referring to another man.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

I think people are just not use to that literary style. Just like the author of "the one that Jesus loved", John, when he was speaking about himself.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah.

The true Messiah is effort, education, contemplation, analysis, knowledge, understanding. There is no other Messiah. Ignorance and superstition will not save anyone.

 

[1213]

I believe that the Son of man was Jesus and that Baha'u'llah was the return if the Son of man, because Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit in another man who was like the Son of man.....

There seems to be many similarities, but, reason why I don’t agree is this:

For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matt. 24:27

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus did not refer to Himself in the OT because Jesus did not write the OT or speak in it. Christians try to go back to the OT and claim the prophecies for the Messiah are about Jesus, but the problem with that is that Jesus did not fulfill any prophecies for the Messiah of the end times which is the Messianic Age.

You can believe that if you want to, we all have beliefs.

Christians have been saying that Jesus will return for centuries but still no Jesus, even though the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ have all been fulfilled, as demonstrated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears .

Logically speaking, since these Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled, they cannot be re-fulfilled, since they are specific to the one man who fulfilled them.

Funny I was just reading in Malachi today, that a sign of Messiah would be His purification of the priestly class--just as when Jesus rebuked them and "many of the priests became obedient to the Christian faith", as Acts tells us.

JESUS is Lord, God and King IMHO. Daniel 9, for example, says 483 years would elapse after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem for Messiah to die for human sin -- the prophecy predicted Passover in 30 AD!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Another passage that proves that it was Jesus who ascended as the Son of Man and comes back again is Acts 1:10,11.

'And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven'.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

Exploring the definition of heaven should be interesting, as Christ, according to the above verse was ‘in heaven ‘ at the same time He walked upon the earth. Yet He was not in the sky.

One dictionary definition of heaven is ‘ a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God’ (Mirriam Webster).

This definition confirms that Christ was in heaven (a spiritual state), at the same time He walked the earth and also confirms that He likewise would return in a similar spiritual state.

This definition makes much more sense to me than heaven meaning the sky, as Christ was not in the sky while He walked the earth, but if we take the meaning of heaven to be a ‘spiritual state ‘, then indeed it all makes sense and is also according to science and reason.

The very fact that the two verses contradict one another, to me, means there is a basic misinterpretation, as the Bible is the Word of God, the truth, and it is impossible for one truth to contradict another truth, so we must look for the meaning which displays truth in both verses and in my humble opinion, this definition of a spiritual state, reconciles the verses, as the Word of God is to me united and never in opposition to itself.

Finite minds though, do err.

 

[cataway]

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

Exploring the definition of heaven should be interesting, as Christ, according to the above verse was ‘in heaven ‘ at the same time He walked upon the earth. Yet He was not in the sky.

One dictionary definition of heaven is ‘ a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God’ (Mirriam Webster).

This definition confirms that Christ was in heaven (a spiritual state), at the same time He walked the earth and also confirms that He likewise would return in a similar spiritual state.

This definition makes much more sense to me than heaven meaning the sky, as Christ was not in the sky while He walked the earth, but if we take the meaning of heaven to be a ‘spiritual state ‘, then indeed it all makes sense and is also according to science and reason.

The very fact that the two verses contradict one another, to me, means there is a basic misinterpretation, as the Bible is the Word of God, the truth, and it is impossible for one truth to contradict another truth, so we must look for the meaning which displays truth in both verses and in my humble opinion, this definition of a spiritual state, reconciles the verses, as the Word of God is to me united and never in opposition to itself.

Finite minds though, do err.

hummm ,your either misguided or tiring to confuse your self .
Consider an example. As recorded at John 3:13, Jesus said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” Some translators have added the words “which [or, who] is in heaven.” Those additional words suggest that Jesus was in heaven and on earth at the same time—a notion that supports the idea of the Trinity. That added phrase appears in a few manuscripts from the fifth and tenth centuries C.E. However, its omission in the earlier Vatican and Sinaitic manuscripts has led many modern translators to remove the phrase. This clears up confusion about the identity of Christ and harmonizes with the rest of the Scriptures. Rather than being in two places at the same time, Jesus had come from the heavens and would soon return to the heavens, “ascending to” his Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus was changed from corruptible flesh and blood into an incorruptible spiritual body by resurrection (see 1Corinthians 15). But the soul of Jesus must have been raised within the new incorruptible body. If you look to Jonah 2:5,6 you will see that the soul of Jonah lived on after death. In like manner, the soul of Jesus must have been raised in a new spiritual body.

Yes, the soul of Jesus was raised in a new spiritual body. This book, written by a Christian, describes exactly how that resurrection of the spirit (soul) takes place when we die physically. The same thing that happened to Jesus happens to everyone:

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351​

The physical body does not come up out of the grave and BECOME a “glorified” spiritual body. What happens is described above. When the body dies, the spirit (soul) passes from one world unto another. The spirit (soul) then takes on another form made up of spiritual elements, a spiritual body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Acts 1:2 is referring to Jesus when it says, 'Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen;'

In Acts 1:9 it says, 'And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight'.

So, the passage is quite clear that the onlookers on the Mount of Olives were with the resurrected Lord Jesus as he was taken up from the earth. They saw him disappear into a cloud.

But you do not know what the onlookers saw because it is not specified in the Bible. It is possible they saw the "spiritual body" of Jesus taken up, as things like that happened back in those days.

If the soul of Jesus was not raised in a new body then you could claim that the identity of Jesus was eradicated at resurrection, which is not what the scriptures teach.

The soul of Jesus was raised in a new body, a spiritual body, as I explained above. This is very important so read it carefully.

For instance, in Revelation 22:20 it says, 'He that testifyeth these things saith, Surely l come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus'.

Because when the Bible was written, nobody knew what the New Name would be, but clearly it would not be Jesus. Nobody knew what the New Name would be until it was received when the Spirit of Christ returned in another man with that New Name:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Why does it not say, Even so, come, spirit of Christ?

Why does it not say, Even so, come, body of Christ?

You just assume it would be the same body of Jesus Christ, but given what the verses below say, that cannot be the case unless Jesus (1) Jesus lied or (2) the NT is in error. If Jesus lied then we cannot trust anything else Jesus said, and if the NT is in error then we cannot trust anything else that is written in the NT. There is no way around this. The world would see the body of Christ no more because His soul ascended to heaven and took on a spiritual body, and spiritual bodies do not return to earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, Bahais believe that Jesus was not son of God and that he was also not the son of Joseph. That puts us in a quandary. Who was Jesus' father?

Jesus did not have a human father, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

What you wrote was absolute boolsheet. Give me a sensible snapshot of what William Seers wrote. Then I may have some interest in reading it. Why should I waste my time on reading these senseless explanations?

I cannot post everything Sears wrote on this forum. If you want to know what Sears wrote about those prophecies I just happen to have that posted on my forum on a thread entitled Signs in the Heavens. There are six posts on that thread and the link to the first post is as follows.

Delphi Forums Login

Please let me know if you have a problem accessing my forum. You do not have to be a member of Delphi Forums, you can view it as a visitor, but that link above might not work unless you are logged in as a member. If you cannot get to it on that link above, you can go to my forum called The Spiritual Horizon and look for that thread. It is in the Christian Subjects folder.

Delphi Forums Login

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oh! So Holy Spirit (Whatever is it) is different from God / Allah. Christians (at least some) say that God, Holy Spirit and Jesus are the same. Did Mohammad talk about Holy Spirit?
I am not the type of person to enjoy 'theist signs in the heaven', I enjoy the astronomer's or physicist's 'signs in the heaven'. So, I will go to some other forum. Spiritual Horizon, no I better stick with the Big Bang Horizon. However, thanks for inviting me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did Mohammad talk about Holy Spirit?

I imagine He did but I do not know the Qur'an.

 

[Trailblazer]

There seems to be many similarities, but, reason why I don’t agree is this:

For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matt. 24:27

Interesting you mention the lightening from the east...

18. Lightning from the East

I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.”(Micah 5:2)

Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

“I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”(Matthew 24:27)

The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’.(The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. In fact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2).The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latter days’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.”(Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said:“When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’”(The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

Isaiah 41:2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the Lord.

It appears as if the Throne was set in Elam, not in Jerusalem, as many Christians believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

JESUS is Lord, God and King IMHO. Daniel 9, for example, says 483 years would elapse after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem for Messiah to die for human sin -- the prophecy predicted Passover in 30 AD!

Daniel accurately predicted the first coming of Christ, and I believe he also accurately predicted the second Coming of Christ, who was the Messiah the Jews have long awaited. Here are some excerpts from a chapter entitled:
10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

The proofs are explained in this chapter, following the two paragraphs below.

“All the peoples of the world are awaiting two Manifestations, Who must be contemporaneous; all wait for the fulfillment of this promise. In the Bible the Jews have the promise of the Lord of Hosts and the Messiah; in the Gospel the return of Christ and Elijah is promised.

In the religion of Muḥammad there is the promise of the Mihdí and the Messiah, and it is the same with the Zoroastrian and the other religions, but if we relate these matters in detail, it would take too long. The essential fact is that all are promised two Manifestations, Who will come, one following on the other. It has been prophesied that in the time of these two Manifestations the earth will be transformed, the world of existence will be renewed, and beings will be clothed in new garments. Justice and truth will encompass the world; enmity and hatred will disappear; all causes of division among peoples, races and nations will vanish; and the cause of union, harmony and concord will appear. The negligent will awake, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the dumb will speak, the sick will be cured, the dead will arise. War will give place to peace, enmity will be conquered by love, the causes of dispute and wrangling will be entirely removed, and true felicity will be attained. The world will become the mirror of the Heavenly Kingdom; humanity will be the Throne of Divinity. All nations will become one; all religions will be unified; all individual men will become of one family and of one kindred. All the regions of the earth will become one; the superstitions caused by races, countries, individuals, languages and politics will disappear; and all men will attain to life eternal, under the shadow of the Lord of Hosts.

Now we must prove from the Holy Books that these two Manifestations have come, and we must divine the meaning of the words of the Prophets, for we wish for proofs drawn from the Holy Books.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 39-40

 

[Aupmanyav]

Isaiah 41:2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

These prophecis ar great fun. Righteous man from the East - East of what? No exact co-ordinates. East of Iran? East of India? Thailand? China? Japan? Philippines? East Timor? Paris is East of London and Moscow is North-east of Paris. You can make whatever you want of Isiah 41.2.
And Gave him the power to rule. Talking of King George the V of Britain.