Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

[Trailblazer]

Righteous man from the East - East of what? No exact co-ordinates. East of Iran? East of India? Thailand? China? Japan? Philippines? East Timor? Paris is East of London and Moscow is North-east of Paris.

Read the post and you will find out what it is east of.

You can make whatever you want of Isiah 41.2.

That is true, but when you put all the pieces of the puzzle together, they all point to one man.
Even if there was no other proof of Baha'u'llah, the Bible prophecies would suffice as proof.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh! So Holy Spirit (Whatever is it) is different from God / Allah. Christians (at least some) say that God, Holy Spirit and Jesus are the same. Did Mohammad talk about Holy Spirit?
I am not the type of person to enjoy 'theist signs in the heaven', I enjoy the astronomer's or physicist's 'signs in the heaven'. So, I will go to some other forum. Spiritual Horizon, no I better stick with the Big Bang Horizon. However, thanks for inviting me.

I am in a place where we get to see a big sky at night and very few lights to dim the spectical. We live in an amazing world.

Baha'u'llah has written that the Holy Spirit Itself was generated by the Most Great Spirit in the extracted verse below. The verse also says God can make us beleive and give us all knowledge.

Thus I see there must be great bounty in having free will to choose our own destiny.

“..... The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend.”… “Within the treasury of Our Wisdom there lies unrevealed a knowledge, one word of which, if we chose to divulge it to mankind, would cause every human being to recognize the Manifestation of God and to acknowledge His omniscience, would enable every one to discover the secrets of all the sciences, and to attain so high a station as to find himself wholly independent of all past and future learning ......."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

These prophecis ar great fun. Righteous man from the East - East of what? No exact co-ordinates. East of Iran? East of India? Thailand? China? Japan? Philippines? East Timor? Paris is East of London and Moscow is North-east of Paris. You can make whatever you want of Isiah 41.2.
And Gave him the power to rule. Talking of King George the V of Britain.

East of the Holy Land Jerusalem became the centre of Christianity.

The New Jerusalem is Haifa, the centre of the Baha'i Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, is sent from heaven and unites the body, the Church. This body is the 'bride', for which the groom returns at the time of the marriage feast, the second coming.

I see that all that started to unfold in 1844 when the Gate was opened.

I see the Glory of God, the Comforter, came via the way of the Gate, from the East.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

I see that all that started to unfold in 1844 when the Gate was opened.

I see the Glory of God, the Comforter, came via the way of the Gate, from the East.

Regards Tony

Does that mean that the Comforter was in heaven until 1844?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does that mean that the Comforter was in heaven until 1844?

I personally see the Comforter is always in Heaven, as I also see Christ is always in Heaven, even when that Spirit was known as Jesus.

There are times when God chooses to show us that Spirit in this world in the form of a Messenger.

1844 was the Gate (Bab) as Elijah always comes first. The Glory of God (Baha'u'llah) entered via the Gate and was declared to the world in 1863. The Comforter is but one title.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Does that mean that the Comforter was in heaven until 1844?

Baha'u'llah was in heaven until 1817, which is when He was born on earth.
Jesus Christ was also in heaven (the spiritual world) before He was born from the womb of Mary.
Jesus was called the Alpha and the Omega because His soul has always existed in the spiritual world, which has no beginning or end.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Redemptionsong]

I personally see the Comforter is always in Heaven, as I also see Christ is always in Heaven, even when that Spirit was known as Jesus.

There are times when God chooses to show us that Spirit in this world in the form of a Messenger.

1844 was the Gate (Bab) as Elijah always comes first. The Glory of God (Baha'u'llah) entered via the Gate and was declared to the world in 1863. The Comforter is but one title.

Regards Tony

John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.'

Does this mean that you believe that Bab and Baha'u'llah were able to recall the words of Jesus?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.'

Does this mean that you believe that Bab and Baha'u'llah were able to recall the words of Jesus?

I beleive the Bab and Baha'u'llah are that Word. That they came forth from the Word as foreseen by the Prophets of the Old Testament and Jesus and the Disciples.

Yes, they could recall all that Jesus taught and show it unto us and then guide us unto all truth.

It is a big topic to cover in a few words.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

What trash are you writing, Trailblazer? Why pick out on Lisbon Earthquake? What is so special about that? Here is a list of earthquakes of intensity 7 or greater all over the world. There have been many. Latest Earthquakes

New England's Dark Day occurred on May 19, 1780, when an unusual darkening of the day sky was observed over the New England states and parts of Canada. The primary cause of the event is believed to have been a combination of smoke from forest fires, a thick fog, and cloud cover. The darkness was so complete that candles were required from noon on. It did not disperse until the middle of the next night. New England's Dark Day - Wikipedia

Meteorite showers have been noticed for the last 2000 years. "A meteor shower is a celestial event in which a number of meteors are observed to radiate, or originate, from one point in the night sky. .. The Meteor Data Centre lists over 900 suspected meteor showers of which about 100 are well established." Meteor shower - Wikipedia

Why is Bahai-Library dishing out superstitious things? Obviously, these excerpts are meant only for uneducated fools.

But you forget, the great star fall in Canada was on the very night that on the other side of the world the guy that would take the title of Baha'u'llah, The Glory of God, would be celebrating his birthday. Just think of all the Canadians that looked up at the sky and knew that something special was happening... somewhere. Or, were thinking, "Wow, a meteor shower."

As for the others, I'm sure if we search all the Scriptures we will find a place where an earthquake exactly 89 years and a dark day 64 years before The Bab declared his mission is prophesied. Like anywhere that "8" is mentioned and another place where it has a "9", and a "6" and a "4" is mentioned that will be close enough. Then, all we have to do is combine those two different verses and we get "89"and a "64" How obvious. How people haven't seen how this so clearly predicts the coming of Jesus. Oh wait, I mean the coming of the forerunner of Jesus, Elijah. Now the real Jesus, but not really Jesus, Baha'u'llah wouldn't announce himself until 1863.

But actually, The Bab can be seen as the return of Jesus because he too is a "manifestation" of God, just like Baha'u'llah. And, as is so clearly predicted in all Scriptures there would be a "twin" manifestation. Yes, two of them. This is so obvious I can't believe that people haven't seen this before. The Book of Revelation, a book that had trouble getting approved to even get into the NT, says that there will be three "Woes". The first one is clearly talking about Muhammed. The second one happens, and it says the third one is coming quickly. Obviously, this is speaking of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Read it for yourself and see how clear a prophecy this is.

So, because there are two prophets, or "returns" of Christ, I guess we should find another earthquake, dark day, and star fall to cover the declaration of Baha'u'llah. You already gave us a list of good candidates for the earthquake. The one in Afghanistan in 1906 will do. That is exactly almost 50 years after Baha'u'llah announced that he was the guy. That's significant because that is almost exactly the 50 year commemoration. That's important. So don't you feel silly calling all this stuff "superstitious"?

 

[CG Didymus]

These prophecis ar great fun. Righteous man from the East - East of what? No exact co-ordinates. East of Iran? East of India? Thailand? China? Japan? Philippines? East Timor? Paris is East of London and Moscow is North-east of Paris. You can make whatever you want of Isiah 41.2.
And Gave him the power to rule. Talking of King George the V of Britain.

I wonder... are these "prophecies" that Baha'u'llah said he fulfilled? Or, "prophecies" that his followers scoured through the pages of the Bible to find anything, something, that could be made into a fulfilled prophecy? As you know, they do the same thing with the Kalki prophecies. They find ways to make them fit. Which ends up proving nothing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. the Bible prophecies would suffice as proof.

I do not follow any Abrahamic religion. Tanakh, Bible, Quran and anything contained in them has no value for me. I do not buy your snake-oil.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The verse also says God can make us believe and give us all knowledge.
".. one word of which, if we chose to divulge it to mankind, would cause every human being to recognize the Manifestation of God and to acknowledge His omniscience, would enable every one to discover the secrets of all the sciences, and to attain so high a station as to find himself wholly independent of all past and future learning .."

I do not know. He may have tried, but failed completely. He did not provide me any proof. He may have promised something to you. He promised an abode with a garden and stream, 72 male and female houris to fulfill any of their desires and an unlimited supply of heavenly booze to Muslims. I do not think there can be a better offer than that. But since it is only a paper promise, he cannot fool me.

Why did not your 19th Century uneducated Iranian preacher reveal any such word if he knew of it? He did make a fool of some uneducated hinterland Iranians of his time, but I am surprised how people of 21st Century can believe his inane babble (example above).

 

[Aupmanyav]

East of the Holy Land Jerusalem became the centre of Christianity.
The New Jerusalem is Haifa, the centre of the Baha'i Faith.

That may be true for Jews and Christians. For Muslims, Allah changed the Center to Mecca. For Bahais, Allah changed it to Haifa. For Ahmadiyyas, it is Quadian, Punjab, India. Allah is so fickle.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not follow any Abrahamic religion. Tanakh, Bible, Quran and anything contained in them has no value for me. I do not buy your snake-oil.

Yeah, I know that, but I love you anyway.

 

[Pipiripi]

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven, but did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “and then shall they see me coming in the clouds of heaven?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person.

How do you write in 3rd person?

Third person refers to people “on the outside.” You either write about someone by name or use third person pronouns. Third person pronouns include: he, she, it; his, her, its; him, her, it; himself, herself, itself; they; them; their; themselves.
6 Ways to Write in Third Person - wikiHow

Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and then Jesus says “of him also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Moreover, not once in the entire New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth. Rather, Jesus said His work was finished in the world and He was no more in the world.

Why didn’t Jesus say He was going to return to earth if He had been planning to return to earth? If Jesus was planning to return to earth why did Jesus say I have finished my work, the world will see me no more, and I am no more in the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Read John again and see what Jesus mission was on this earth. Then you can see why He says I'm come again.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

Exploring the definition of heaven should be interesting, as Christ, according to the above verse was ‘in heaven ‘ at the same time He walked upon the earth. Yet He was not in the sky.

One dictionary definition of heaven is ‘ a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God’ (Mirriam Webster).

This definition confirms that Christ was in heaven (a spiritual state), at the same time He walked the earth and also confirms that He likewise would return in a similar spiritual state.

This definition makes much more sense to me than heaven meaning the sky, as Christ was not in the sky while He walked the earth, but if we take the meaning of heaven to be a ‘spiritual state ‘, then indeed it all makes sense and is also according to science and reason.

The very fact that the two verses contradict one another, to me, means there is a basic misinterpretation, as the Bible is the Word of God, the truth, and it is impossible for one truth to contradict another truth, so we must look for the meaning which displays truth in both verses and in my humble opinion, this definition of a spiritual state, reconciles the verses, as the Word of God is to me united and never in opposition to itself.

Finite minds though, do err.

I agree with you about the truth of God's word, and also that Jesus was in a spiritual body. However, a spiritual body can either be visible or invisible. For example, angels appear on earth as men, but are not visible to men in their heavenly abode.

The apostles witnessed the ascension of Jesus but this does not mean that his body was not spiritual.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So don't you feel silly calling all this stuff "superstitious"?

Of course, not. On the contrary, I find the believers to be silly for believing in unscientific bronze-age stuff with no evidence for YHWH / God / Allah or his prophets / sons / messengers / later day saints / manifestations / mahdis / witnesses. Sooner or later someone will crop up with even newer designation. It always happens so in Abrahamic religions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As you know, they do the same thing with the Kalki prophecies. They find ways to make them fit. Which ends up proving nothing.

I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in Gods or Goddesses. It is a section in a book which is known for interpolations talks about Kalki. That too after 425,000 years from now. In a way, Hindus have not found it relevant to talk about. It is mainly other religions who talk about Kalki. For Hindus, the current epoch, Kaliyuga, with its greed and lust is going to last for another 425,000 years. Nothing much can be done about that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, I know that, but I love you anyway.

What else can you do? You do not have the substance to engage me in any debate, just the evidence of some illiterate manipulative people reported to have spoken or written something in ages gone by. You say that new tablets written by Bahaollah or his successors can be found anytime, just like Mohammad could produce Ayahs suiting him for any moment. Ayesha commented on that in the hadiths.