Who is to Blame?

[BilliardsBall]

Neither are you for the failed prophecy, the case of pious frauds, the self-fulfilling prophecies or those who were vague enough to hamfisted on a variety of events thanks to the Forer effect.

The nation of Israel becoming a Jewish nation, as prophesied to occur in 1948 CE, wasn't "a Barnum effect"!

 

[epronovost]

The nation of Israel becoming a Jewish nation, as prophesied to occur in 1948 CE, wasn't "a Barnum effect"!

Definitely, since no precise date were ever mentionned in the Bible, especially not future dates based on any calendars let alone the Christian Gregorian calendar. There is no mention of the Holocost, Ben Gourion, the occupation of Palestine by the UK, etc. That's a clear sign of the Barnum effect.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Definitely, since no precise date were ever mentionned in the Bible, especially not future dates based on any calendars let alone the Christian Gregorian calendar. There is no mention of the Holocost, Ben Gourion, the occupation of Palestine by the UK, etc. That's a clear sign of the Barnum effect.

Of course there was a calendar used and dates and specific persons and events mentioned. Israel has fulfilled 60 specific Bible prophecies since 1948.

 

[epronovost]

Of course there was a calendar used and dates and specific persons and events mentioned. Israel has fulfilled 60 specific Bible prophecies since 1948.

Please quote the passage where the creation of the State of Israel under the leadership of Ben Gourion in 1948 is mentionned and let's verify that you are not putting into something what you precisely want to see. Last time I read the OT, mind you it was a while back, I didn't remember reading any date that, transfered into our calendar, would be 1948, nor the name Ben Gourion, nor any mention of the English or Ottoman people. In fact, Israel is pretty much always referred to as either some vague promised land or an actual kingdom, never as a representative parliamentary democracy in which the Torah is definitely not the law of the land.

 

[rrobs]

and so it won't be His fault when He returns
to sweep and garnish His floor
with a double edged sword

Just doing his job. Can't blame a guy for that. It'd be like blaming a dog for barking or a parrot for talking. You gotta do what you gotta do. The doing is the tricky part but perseverance wins the game every time. Of course Alice in Wonderland might not agree, but we have to ask; is she real?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Please quote the passage where the creation of the State of Israel under the leadership of Ben Gourion in 1948 is mentionned and let's verify that you are not putting into something what you precisely want to see. Last time I read the OT, mind you it was a while back, I didn't remember reading any date that, transfered into our calendar, would be 1948, nor the name Ben Gourion, nor any mention of the English or Ottoman people. In fact, Israel is pretty much always referred to as either some vague promised land or an actual kingdom, never as a representative parliamentary democracy in which the Torah is definitely not the law of the land.

The passage says Israel would be reformed as a nation in a single day, and Israel was incepted via a vote of the United Nations on May 14, 1948. Learn the history and the Bible before making assumptions, please.

You are digging a good hole for yourself, if you want to get closer to the Bible truth that is, by saying "the Torah wouldn't be the rule", since other prophecies explain how the nation will be secular at first than come to Messiah when He Returns.

 

[Thief]

Just doing his job. Can't blame a guy for that. It'd be like blaming a dog for barking or a parrot for talking. You gotta do what you gotta do. The doing is the tricky part but perseverance wins the game every time. Of course Alice in Wonderland might not agree, but we have to ask; is she real?

well....we do blame the dog for barking
we often times tell our dog to knock it off

and parrots.....parrot what they hear
but they are not stupid
(check youtube)

as for Alice......OFF with her head!

 

[epronovost]

The passage says Israel would be reformed as a nation in a single day, and Israel was incepted via a vote of the United Nations on May 14, 1948. Learn the history and the Bible before making assumptions, please.

What passage says that Israel would be formed as a nation after a single vote of the UN on May 14th, 1948. I would you to quote me the scripture in question to see if you aren't falling prey to the Forer Effect and I seriously doubt the Bible mentions anything about a vote in the UN assembly, not more then it.

It sounds like you are trying to dodge something. If the Bible said Israel shall be reformed as a nation for and by the jewish people following years of war against arabic palestenian and british occupation force to be recognised on the 14th day of the month of May 1948 you could just quote me that passage. If it doesn't hold all those informations, you are using your imagination in some capacity, thus falling prey to the Forer Effect. If the prophecy says one day only, it's wrong. Israel was formed after years of civil war and was only recognised internationally following a vote on a single day. Internationnal recognition and creation aren't the same thing.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What passage says that Israel would be formed as a nation after a single vote of the UN on May 14th, 1948. I would you to quote me the scripture in question to see if you aren't falling prey to the Forer Effect and I seriously doubt the Bible mentions anything about a vote in the UN assembly, not more then it.

It sounds like you are trying to dodge something. If the Bible said Israel shall be reformed as a nation for and by the jewish people following years of war against arabic palestenian and british occupation force to be recognised on the 14th day of the month of May 1948 you could just quote me that passage. If it doesn't hold all those informations, you are using your imagination in some capacity, thus falling prey to the Forer Effect. If the prophecy says one day only, it's wrong. Israel was formed after years of civil war and was only recognised internationally following a vote on a single day. Internationnal recognition and creation aren't the same thing.

Why should I reply at all, since you have rhetorically defined the boundaries under which you will accept the timed prophecy? I've already promised only that it gives the exact date that modern Israel would be incepted. How are you not just another skeptic saying, "Unless God does a thing exactly as I wish, I will reject Him?"

PS. The nation of Israel had no status in the U.N. or the international community until the U.N. vote resolution. Again, your philosophy doesn't line up with reality or international law/precedent.

 

[Muffled]

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

I believe the Greek and Egyptian beliefs did not come from God but the Biblical beliefs do.

I believe I can't imagine Jesus encouraging the inquisition. He probably would have called them a brood of vipers.

 

[Muffled]

The bible is a pretty horrendous book, particularly the OT. It condones genocide, murder, theft, slavery, rape and much more.

Many christians say only the NT is relevant to them but a am guessing that every one of them had studied the OT and learned from it.

I believe Christians should never view the OT as irrelevant. It is relevant to the extent that Jesus says it is and He did quote it.

 

[Muffled]

The only people to blame are those that cling to ancient religions and worldviews in the contemporary world. Ancient religions were anchored in the ancient cultures of the past, and remain narrowly oriented today. Christianity became progressively influenced by Hellenist and Roman influence beginning with Paul progressed after ~100 AD, and reflects the culture, which is no longer relevant in a universal perspective of the contemporary world.

I believe I do not agree. An ancient religion can be as good or better than a lot of the new ones that don't have God in them.

 

[ChristineM]

I believe Christians should never view the OT as irrelevant. It is relevant to the extent that Jesus says it is and He did quote it.

You are a rare breed.

 

[epronovost]

Why should I reply at all, since you have rhetorically defined the boundaries under which you will accept the timed prophecy? I've already promised only that it gives the exact date that modern Israel would be incepted. How are you not just another skeptic saying, "Unless God does a thing exactly as I wish, I will reject Him?"

Your refusal to provide the passage you declare predicts perfectly the creation of Israel is suspicious. As a skeptic, I'm aware and especially prudent when it comes to prophecies and predictions of all sorts since they are easy to forge and it's equally easy to make predictions that, while they sound precises, are actually vague enough that the Forer Effect can give it an appearance of reality while it might simply be due to wishes of the person reading it. Charlatans and stage magicians are well known for such techniques. I believe you might be a ''victim'' of the Forer Effect when it comes to this particular prophecy. The fact you refuse to provide the exact text is suspicious as without it, we can't begin to even make some comparative reading. I think you are trying to even conseal the possibility that your certitude might be based on a fragile basis to the eyes of others like me. To remove the possibility that you might have fallen prey to the Forer Effect, you must demonstrate that you based your beliefs on the basis of precise informations. The more precise your information about X are, the least likely you are to have fallen to the Forer Effect. The more vague they are, the more they are likely to have fallen prey to it.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe I do not agree. An ancient religion can be as good or better than a lot of the new ones that don't have God in them.

I am referring to religions with God. One of the problems with some ancient religions is they believe they are the only one with God, they often reject or conditionally accept science, and have to deal with modern problems like slavery with gerrymandered interpretations, or simply the lack of consistent guidance..

 

[BilliardsBall]

Your refusal to provide the passage you declare predicts perfectly the creation of Israel is suspicious. As a skeptic, I'm aware and especially prudent when it comes to prophecies and predictions of all sorts since they are easy to forge and it's equally easy to make predictions that, while they sound precises, are actually vague enough that the Forer Effect can give it an appearance of reality while it might simply be due to wishes of the person reading it. Charlatans and stage magicians are well known for such techniques. I believe you might be a ''victim'' of the Forer Effect when it comes to this particular prophecy. The fact you refuse to provide the exact text is suspicious as without it, we can't begin to even make some comparative reading. I think you are trying to even conseal the possibility that your certitude might be based on a fragile basis to the eyes of others like me. To remove the possibility that you might have fallen prey to the Forer Effect, you must demonstrate that you based your beliefs on the basis of precise informations. The more precise your information about X are, the least likely you are to have fallen to the Forer Effect. The more vague they are, the more they are likely to have fallen prey to it.

How wonderful of you to "believe I'm a Forer effect victim" without actually considering the passages in question! Typical atheist garbage. Try again!

 

[epronovost]

How wonderful of you to "believe I'm a Forer effect victim" without actually considering the passages in question! Typical atheist garbage. Try again!

I'm suspecting it. I want you to post the passage to confirm or infrim this hypothesis , but you staunchly refused to post the passage or a link to the passage using the translation of your choice so far. What passage are you using? Please post it so I can see if my hypthesis has grounding or not. I don't remeber any passage in the Bible that state that the State of Israel would be created in 1948 following a long civil war following the Britsh mandate in Palestine. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't read the Bible in years. What's the passage you are referring to?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm suspecting it. I want you to post the passage to confirm or infrim this hypothesis , but you staunchly refused to post the passage or a link to the passage using the translation of your choice so far. What passage are you using? Please post it so I can see if my hypthesis has grounding or not. I don't remeber any passage in the Bible that state that the State of Israel would be created in 1948 following a long civil war following the Britsh mandate in Palestine. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't read the Bible in years. What's the passage you are referring to?

Some prophecies:

1) The Jews, after rejecting their Messiah, were to be scattered to many nations

2) They would bless each and all of these nations

3) They would be persecuted in each and all of those nations

4) They would inaugurate a Jewish nation again, in 1948 CE!

5) Messiah would return to the Jews

# 4 is fascinating.

After modern Israel was incepted, Christians proclaimed the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, atheists noticed that it was a void prophecy, because…

Ezekiel prophesied a number of years in captivity:

“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6

That's 430 years (biblical years of 360 days each). 70 years of captivity were served in Babylon, leaving 360 years.

Modern atheists noted this... surely the final Jewish diaspora into modern times lasted more than 360 years since the end of the Babylonian captivity! Surely the Bible was wrong:

606 BCE …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon

536 BCE …Cyrus allows return to Israel

...360 years later is pre-Roman times in Israel!

Some readers, noticed, however, that Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience, specifically, in diaspora: "…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins."

They multiplied 7 times 360 360-day years from the Cyrus decree and in the Gentile calendar this comes out to: Whoa! May 14, 1948 CE! God left it as written to demonstrate it wasn't a self-fulfilled prophecy, and for skeptics to draw it out!
**

What about coincidence? There are numerous Bible prophecies, these are the two sole passages on the God-commanded length of the lengthy diaspora. The coincidence would be millions-to-one. There are similar precise number prophecies relating to other aspects, if you're interested. The date for Christ's crucifixion appears in the Septuagint, which scholars know dates to at least two-and-a-half centuries before Christ.

 

[epronovost]

Ezekiel prophesied a number of years in captivity:

“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6

That's 430 years (biblical years of 360 days each). 70 years of captivity were served in Babylon, leaving 360 years.

Modern atheists noted this... surely the final Jewish diaspora into modern times lasted more than 360 years since the end of the Babylonian captivity! Surely the Bible was wrong:

606 BCE …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon

536 BCE …Cyrus allows return to Israel

...360 years later is pre-Roman times in Israel!

Some readers, noticed, however, that Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience, specifically, in diaspora: "…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins."

They multiplied 7 times 360 360-day years from the Cyrus decree and in the Gentile calendar this comes out to: Whoa! May 14, 1948 CE! God left it as written to demonstrate it wasn't a self-fulfilled prophecy, and for skeptics to draw it out!
**

What about coincidence? There are numerous Bible prophecies, these are the two sole passages on the God-commanded length of the lengthy diaspora. The coincidence would be millions-to-one. There are similar precise number prophecies relating to other aspects, if you're interested. The date for Christ's crucifixion appears in the Septuagint, which scholars know dates to at least two-and-a-half centuries before Christ.

Thats precisely a situation where the Forer Effect is likely to be in action. You took a section of a prophecy, not the entire thing, then used a section of unrelated material to produce what you were searching for. How is this not spurious reasonning?

Ezekiel 4 describes how he enacts the siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar II in 587 BC, an event he himself would have lived through considering the Book of Ezekiel was written while the Jews were in captivity. The next chapter he enacts the famine and epidemic that followed. Ezekiel in those chapters doesn't make prediction, he talks about what happened in the past and tries to convey it to a more modern audience who hasn't lived through it by a ritualised process. The siege of Jerusalem happened after the date of 606 BC you provided for the Jewish exile to Babylon which was actual made in several waves from 597 BC to 582 BC which throws off your calculus. The date of 605-606 is the date of the first tribute of the kindgom of Israel to Babylon which did include some Hebrew noble youth taken as some sort of hostages, but it would take until after the first siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar II for actual mass deportations to start.

The Leviticus passage quoted isn't a prediction of the future either. It's more akin to "a threat" where the God character assert that all fault commited against him will be avenged seven times over. There is no mention as to when exactly the punishment would have started either. Of course, it contains a number of historical errors like Hebrew being detained in Egypt (it was in Mesopotamia), the errancy in the Sinai desert and the existence of Moses as a historical figures.

It also contains a pretty big mistake when it mentions that should Israel be punished by God, it would remain empty and desolated until he finally allows them to return. If you want to make it a prediction about the creation of the State of Israel, the land was definitely not desolated and inhabited, Jerusalem was still standing as did numerous ancient Hebrew cities. Furthermore, while Isreal was recognised as an independant nation in 1948, it wasn't officially designed as "the nation of the jewish people" until 2018 following a law passed by Netanyahu government. It's also important to note that not all the lands of the Kingdom of Israel are under the authority of Israel (or at least they are not recognised as such by the international community and since you used official reconition by the international community as a key date for the 1948 prediction hypothesis, it should count for the territories annexed by Israel in the following wars).

PS: It's good to note that Ezekiel also made several predictions that were completely bogus like the destruction of the city of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar or the desolation of Egypt for 40 years for example.

 

[e.r.m.]

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

Such atrocities were committed well after the first century and after the church had let go of the standard. Correct, I don't see Jesus participating in the inquisition, and I also don't see the first century Church participating in the Crusades.