Who observes, that the brain observes ?

[Howard Is]

The one which is telling you that you don't know this yet. Is your brain.
But, who wants to know ? just think about that

I thought about that for years.
It makes no difference what I think.

It makes no difference if you think this experience is spiritual or material.
The experience remains the same no matter what name you give it.

I often allow myself to ‘slip the clutch’ and experience various kinds of meditative states, including absorption in ‘pure awareness’ as it is often described.

My exploration of trance states, meditative states and chemically altered states began about fifty years ago.

I have studied with lamas and swamis.

So I am not some ‘ignorant materialist’.

From that perspective, I have realised that reality simply is what it is.

There is nothing to achieve.

We don’t need to be saved.

And no matter how you define it, discuss it or name it, reality is exactly the same.

Whether or not there is a spiritual realm, or a transcendental basis for consciousness, makes absolutely no difference.

 

[chinu]

I thought about that for years.
It makes no difference what I think.

It makes no difference if you think this experience is spiritual or material.
The experience remains the same no matter what name you give it.

I agree.

I often allow myself to ‘slip the clutch’ and experience various kinds of meditative states, including absorption in ‘pure awareness’ as it is often described.

My exploration of trance states, meditative states and chemically altered states began about fifty years ago.

I have studied with lamas and swamis.

So I am not some ‘ignorant materialist’.

I wholeheartedly appreciate that.

From that perspective, I have realised that reality simply is what it is.

I agree.

There is nothing to achieve.

Here, I don't agree.

If, one think that there's nothing to achieve, then of course there's nothing to achieve.
But, if one think there's something to achieve, then of course there's something to achieve.

We don’t need to be saved.

And no matter how you define it, discuss it or name it, reality is exactly the same.

Do you care to define what do you mean by "Saved"

Whether or not there is a spiritual realm, or a transcendental basis for consciousness, makes absolutely no difference.

Makes no difference to what ?

 

[Howard Is]

Here, I don't agree.

By nothing to achieve, I mean no ‘special’ state of consciousness.
Certainly the development of discrimination is valuable. By discrimination I mean the ability to make choices that lead to happiness and harmony. Intelligent management of karma.

Do you care to define what do you mean by "Saved"

Some religions have an idea that life, or materiality, is some kind of malignant trap from which we must extricate ourselves.

I would accept that is true if one is suffering from craving/aversion.
But the remedy to that is wisdom, not taking refuge in some alleged ‘spirituality’.

Makes no difference to what ?

Reality as it is.
Yatha bhuta.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But, who got self-awareness ?

The self.

 

[chinu]

Some religions have an idea that life, or materiality, is some kind of malignant trap from which we must extricate ourselves.

I would accept that is true if one is suffering from craving/aversion.

What do you mean by saying.. "I would accept that is true if one is suffering from craving/aversion" ?

Please explain this with bit more details.

But the remedy to that is wisdom, not taking refuge in some alleged ‘spirituality’.

We will discuss to this later on.

 

[stvdv]

By nothing to achieve, I mean no ‘special’ state of consciousness.

Consciousness, according to Vedanta, IS
(Like in Truth, Reality, Unchangeable)

So, I fully agree. There are not even "different/special" states of Consciousness

Awareness of this Reality is human's ultimate goal (according to several Saints/Masters/....)

Picture says more than words

​

 

[Howard Is]

What do you mean by saying.. "I would accept that is true if one is suffering from craving/aversion" ?

Craving - the suffering of wanting what you do not have.
Aversion - the suffering of having what you do not want.

The objects of craving and aversion may be physical, relational (connections with people), or social, such as wanting fame or disliking fame ... Craving and aversion take myriad forms.

That is of course basic Buddhism, and I included it because in a sense there is something to be saved from. But it is a psychological predicament solved by cultivating wisdom, not the intercession of an alleged spiritual entity or cultivation of a ‘spiritual’ state.

 

[Howard Is]

Consciousness, according to Vedanta, IS
(Like in Truth, Reality, Unchangeable)

So, I fully agree. There are not even "different/special" states of Consciousness

Awareness of this Reality is human's ultimate goal (according to several Saints/Masters/....)

Picture says more than words

View attachment 42532​

View attachment 42532​

Cool pic. Reminds me of something I’m not allowed to talk about, lol.

 

[Howard Is]

@stvdv

Hey, while you’re here, you might enjoy this.
I’m a huge Victor Wooten fan. But I’d never heard this til a few minutes ago.

 

[Father Heathen]

No. The brain is aware of what it can detect through the senses, and much of the self it can detect through these senses. I can touch my face, my legs, my head, etc.

Through these senses, it cannot be aware of itself. I'm not understanding how you're concluding that the brain is aware of itself.

You are aware you have a brain, right? There you go.

 

[stvdv]

Cool pic. Reminds me of something I’m not allowed to talk about, lol.

Freedom of Speech is even in USA not always free. And from now on many more freedoms will be taken away, sadly
Fortunately India is all about democracy and Freedom of Speech and non-judgmental, but even there Corona kills freedom

I remember from the Great Sage Patanjali explaining about this way to experience such awareness
Though he warned this fast track is heavier karma-wise, as compared to the slow way of meditation

 

[Howard Is]

Freedom of Speech is even in USA not always free. And from now on many more freedoms will be taken away, sadly
Fortunately India is all about democracy and Freedom of Speech and non-judgmental, but even there Corona kills freedom

I remember from the Great Sage Patanjali explaining about this way to experience such awareness
Though he warned this fast track is heavier karma-wise, as compared to the slow way of meditation

That is true.
Book 4, Sutra 1

I could name lots of other examples.
The Tibetans I studied with were also quite clear on this, and have some very specific teachings.

I took shaktipat from Muktananda, who explained that this form of yoga was once revered and widespread.

I keep it alive and well.

 

[stvdv]

Hey, while you’re here, you might enjoy this.
I’m a huge Victor Wooten fan. But I’d never heard this til a few minutes ago.

Good to see this awareness being spread, and nice to see it in different forms, making it accessible to different groups of people

 

[Howard Is]

Good to see this awareness being spread, and nice to see it in different forms, making it accessible to different groups of people

I see that as a kind of obligation for serious yogis.

There is no merit in basking in the perceived accomplishment of communicators in the past.

The time is now !

The person is you !

 

[stvdv]

That is true.
Book 4, Sutra 1

I could name lots of other examples.
The Tibetans I studied with were also quite clear on this, and have some very specific teachings.

I took shaktipat from Muktananda, who explained that this form of yoga was once revered and widespread.

I keep it alive and well.

Thanks for sharing. Nice Tibetans and Muktananda. When you study with a real Master you have nothing to worry, and when getting Shaktipat you never have to worry again, and you know once and for all, that a Guru is very useful when being on the Spiritual Path, and it's lots of fun too

Sai Baba gave me a few times Shaktipat, oh my God, incredible ... instant Bliss, light beam like a blazing sun (eyes closed)
(people asked me "do you meditate", in the beginning I said ... no I just go to see Sai Baba ... but later on I realized that these were His Gifts to motivate me to do my own purification/Sadhana. Those were the best moments of my life)

Shaktipat or Śaktipāta refers in Hinduism to the transmission of spiritual energy upon one person by another. Shaktipat can be transmitted with a sacred word or mantra, or by a look, thought or touch – the last usually to the ajna chakra or agya chakra or third eye of the recipient

 

[Brian2]

Speaking as a non-dualist, I would say that ‘the brain’ and ‘observation’ are two ways of referring to the same thing.

This is obvious to anyone who has been anaesthetised.

If there is a spiritual identity beyond the brain, it ceases to know itself when the brain is shut down.

There is no yogi who can remain in a state of ‘higher consciousness’ when anaesthetised, based on my experience, and based on zero reports of such an experience. With the exception of ketamine, which leaves the deep lizard brain active. Which, btw, seems transcendental...

So, it makes no difference whether you attribute consciousness to brain activity or spirit ... no brain activity equals no awareness of any kind.

Meaning that that if there is a ‘supernatural’ spiritual basis to our existence, it relies on a brain to know anything at all.

The many cases of Near Death Experience recorded would tend to show a conscious awareness even when the body is not functioning. Some people report hovering above their body or even going into other rooms and when they awake they know what happened in the other rooms etc.

 

[Howard Is]

Thanks for sharing. Nice Tibetans and Muktananda. When you study with a real Master you have nothing to worry, and when getting Shaktipat you never have to worry again, and you know once and for all, that a Guru is very useful when being on the Spiritual Path, and it's lots of fun too

Sai Baba gave me a few times Shaktipat, oh my God, incredible ... instant Bliss, light beam like a blazing sun (eyes closed)
(people asked me "do you meditate", in the beginning I said ... no I just go to see Sai Baba ... but later on I realized that these were His Gifts to motivate me to do my own purification/Sadhana. Those were the best moments of my life)

Indeed.
I feel blessed to have had the experiences I had.
When I was 19 or so, I bought a book called Mahamudra by Chogyam Trungpa, from a bookshop in Sydney. It really spoke to me. So I bought ‘Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism’, and The Myth of Freedom’, which blew my tiny mind.

A couple of years later I chanced on a poster in Melbourne advertising a visit by Beru Khyentse Rinpoche, the first Tibetan to come to Australia. Two days later I took refuge with him and became part of the the Kagyu lineage. And as it happened, the lama I studied with (Traleg Rinpoche) taught Mahamudra, which is tantric buddhism with its roots in the mahasiddhas of India, and not something commonly taught.

 

[Howard Is]

The many cases of Near Death Experience recorded would tend to show a conscious awareness even when the body is not functioning. Some people report hovering above their body or even going into other rooms and when they awake they know what happened in the other rooms etc.

I have had many such experiences, including what seemed to be bi-location, and what seemed to be confirmation of the experience from others.
I have been observed by others to physically disappear.

Nevertheless, I believe these experiences were products of my brain, and the brains of those observing.

The brain is unimaginably complex.
A single neurone is extraordinarily complex.
There are indications that quantum processes occur within the tubules of synapses... all a bit beyond my pay grade ...

I understand why experiences of that kind are interpreted as proof of the supernatural, but I think that is underestimation of the potentials of the brain.

 

[Nakosis]

There's a general claim that its the brain who observes all the activities done by that human body. Fine.

If so, then at the very same moment who/what observes, that the brain observes ?

No one really, unless that brain happens to be undergoing an MRI scan at the same moment.

The trick is the brain is not aware of itself. What it is aware of is a representation of itself. The brain creates an abstract representation of itself. Name, job, relationship to other people, and fools itself into thinking this representation is what it is. So everything that happens to the brain gets transfered to this self image the brain represents itself with. Self awareness is an illusion IMO. Zen teaches there is no self to be aware of, there is only awareness.

 

[Howard Is]

No one really, unless that brain happens to be undergoing an MRI scan at the same moment.

The trick is the brain is not aware of itself. What it is aware of is a representation of itself. The brain creates an abstract representation of itself. Name, job, relationship to other people, and fools itself into thinking this representation is what it is. So everything that happens to the brain gets transfered to this self image the brain represents itself with. Self awareness is an illusion IMO. Zen teaches there is no self to be aware of, there is only awareness.

Well put.

Someone in the thread was asking which sense is aware of the brain, but actually all perceptions are internal to the brain.

For example, sight.

No one has ever seen anything BUT their brain.
They have never seen ‘the real world’.
What is seen is constructed in the visual cortex.

This is true of every sense.

Your brain is all you have ever experienced.