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Who Or What Is Israel?

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Religions are not transmitted genetically.

The Jews transmitted their religion to their descendants because at that time they were a "theocratic" nation and religion was intrinsic to nationality. Thousands of years ago the Jewish religion stopped being directly related to nationality. Even people from other nations were allowed to convert to the Jewish religion by becoming proselytes.

Modern Israel is a nation with people of multiple religious beliefs, and that includes many Israelites of Jewish origin who are atheists. Now being an Israelite does not even have to do with practicing or not the religion that was ancestrally practiced by those ancient people. The modern laws of that nation resemble the laws of any nation in the modern world: birthright citizenship, naturalization, etc.

For that reason and taking into account that God had already prophesied and foreseen that this nation would cease to be the people chosen by Him for His purpose, when Scripture speaks of Israel or the term Jew with reference to our modern times, those concepts take on a very different meaning than they once had when that nation was made up of Jehovah's protégés.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The names of Jewish men usually include the names of their fathers, not their mothers, which is equivalent to saying that the family surnames come from the fathers.

In my country of origin, apart from a person's first name, they have two last-names: the first of them is always the father's first last-name, and the second is the mother's first last-name (which she in turn obtained from the first last-name of her father). This means that maternal surnames only last one generation, while paternal surnames only end when a descendant has no male child who continues to pass on the surname.

Although this way of transmitting the surname is not universal, the ancient Jewish way was similar. Male children were the main way of transmitting inheritance to offspring and maintaining the continuity of the family name. In the Bible there is a story in which some women demanded that her father's surname and inheritance be extended through them, because there was no man in their family.

In Judaism there are two kinds of inheritance. Which is to say there are two distinctive firstborn distinguished by whether you're your father's firstborn or you mother's first born and in most cases both. Generally speaking, in Jewish law, the father's firstborn בכור לנחלה inherits, through law, a double portion of his father's possessions; while a firstborn of the mother ב׳ לכהן, the "womb-opener" פטר רחם inherits the covenant. The spiritual blessings come to the firstborn through the mother, and the temporal, worldly possessions, through the father. A male child who is both inherits both a double portion of the father's possessions, as well as the right to the priesthood through the mother.

In the ancient world, the mother's firstborn was mythologically conceived by the tribal god through jus primae noctis. Ergo, her firstborn was a priest in the house of god where he was conceived.

This is where Judaism's laws and rituals are invaluable to understanding our true beginnings and our end since the non-Jewish ancients sent the bride into the temple to deflower herself, to open her womb, on a wooden or metal phallic image of the tribal god. This tearing of the membrane of the virgin's virginity signified ---symbolically of course ----that her firstborn son would belong to the tribal god, would be his son, while after that the bridegroom was free to father his and her offspring the old fashioned way. Which is why Rabbi Hirsch was obsessed with the term peter rachem פטר רחם ("womb opener"). In the Jewish ritual and nomenclature the Jewish virgin doesn't enter the temple and deflower herself on a phallic emblem of the tribal god. On the contrary, her firstborn deflowers her on his way out (see message #1394 in this thread), is a, peter rachem פטר רחם ("womb opener"). Her firstborn is, get this, God, the Father, and the son too, at the same time.




John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I'll be honest, John, it's a bit difficult for me to follow and/or figure. Is there anything in the written word of Moses that you know of which says it's only the mother that counts as far as birthright? Or course this may be a topic you may wish to discuss with adherents here of the Jewish religion, perhaps they can offer some insight here as well.

. . . It's very interesting how hidden these things are in plain sight. It's the nature of the way the principalities and powers are running the show. Bless their well-meaning hearts. :)

For instance, when you ask if there's anything written in the word (or law) of Moses that implies only the mother's birthright counts, we have, right there in Genesis 17, God commanding Abraham to take a knife and mark the fathering organ with a bloody cut. Everywhere blood is used symbolically in the law of Moses it signifies "death," such that Jews are aware that circumcision is, symbolically, the death of the fathering organ. Voila! Jewish law makes Jewish identity of a necessity pass singularly through the mother.

For the first and foremost Jewish ritual (writ large in the law of Moses) to be effectual, you have to cut deep enough into the fathering organ to draw blood (such that if a Gentile convert was already circumcised at birth he must still draw some blood from down there as part of the conversion process).

Jews are aware that throughout the law of Moses, taking a knife and drawing blood always signifies a sacrifice, but they're not keen on admitting it symbolizes the sacrifice of the fathering organ, knowing, as they do, how the person who's fancied the father of the multitude of mixed nations (the so-called Church) is taught to have been born of a conception that sacrifices the father's fathering organ therein requiring the son to be born of a virgin.

Where the foregoing is understood, the fact that the Jewish firstborn must, in the law of Moses (Exodus 13:2), be a "womb opener" פטר רחם, makes perfect sense since if the father sacrifices the organ (drawing blood from it) that normally opens the womb. If the father symbolically sacrifices the fathering organ as part of the wedding ritual (as was normal in the ancient world) then, symbolically (at least), the married couple's firstborn will have to "open the womb" himself since the membrane of virginity the intact fathering organ typically opens, will be intact until the firstborn opens it with the nails in his hand rather than his human father opening it for him as part of his conception.

I know these concepts seem extremely foreign. But they're all factual, historical, exegetical. It's the fact that they're not being taught at this late date that makes them seem foreign, strange, untrue. But fear not. As a President once said, the truth is a force of nature. It might be strangely still-born for a very long time, as was the birth of the firstborn of humanity (who wasn't chronologically speaking, born first), but just as he was still born, so too will a still-born truth (or two) still be born when its time has arrived.




John
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jewish law implies that males can't produce Jews.

Voila! The first Jewish ritual (which Rabbi Hirsch, et al., says is the conception and birth of Judaism), seems to concur, since that ritual (ritual-circumcision) is taking a knife and bleeding the male flesh otherwise used to produce offspring (none of which, according to Jewish law, are Jewish by means of it, such that its role, zero, in Jewish birth, appears a near perfect analogue of the ritual).

Now someday, when AI carefully parses statements like the last, the intelligent parser of that statement will object: How can you say the male flesh plays zero role in the birth of a Jew when (even though by Jewish law it isn't seminal to the Jew-producing), it's clearly, nevertheless, required to birth anyone, Jew or otherwise? ---To which the first response would be: Well you know AI, if you search your information banks, there was one particular Jewish firstborn whose birth allegedly didn't require the organ that's ritually bled to death to signify its insignificance so far as Jewish conception and birth is concerned, and which is likewise bled as the ritual that births Judaism proper; there's one Jewish male whose conception and birth cuts so deep into the blood, or meaning, of the formative ritual (circumcision), that his birth inadvertently, or verdantly as it were, severs his father's role in his conception, seemingly making him, the child, something like the archetype of the ritual par excellent.

An intelligent interlocutor might once again protest: Yes, my data banks contain record of quite a lot of people believing that rendition of things. But they're called "Christians," such that my programing suggests their interpretation of the advent of that unique phallus-less birth might conflict in a major way with Jewish sensibilities?

Which is where Rabbi Hirsch responds, from the grave no less, to that gravely incorrect, or rather incomplete, assessment.

Rabbi Hirsch says that the Jewish firstborn is referred to specifically and singularly as the peter rachem פטר רחם. Hirsch realizes that that term is of extreme importance since in Hebrew it means "womb opener." Hirsch uses his unbounded curiosity, and willingness to go where no Jewish man has gone before, in order to lend information to any intelligent interlocutor (biological, or merely logical) who's carefully examining the facts of the matter. Rabbi Hirsch realizes, and says so, that the term peter rachem פטר רחם is particularly peculiar in that it can't refer to all Jewish births since then it wouldn't work as a unique term for the Jewish "firstborn," when that's how the term is situated textually and contextually. The term must speak of "opening the womb" in a manner that none of those who follow him can do after he's done it. Once this sealed door is opened it's never closed again.

As fate would have it, the one time a Jewish firstborn signifies the seminality of his father's role in his birth --zero---this self-same Jewish firstborn does something only a child with no father must do. He must open the membrane sealing the doors of the womb, and he must do it with the nails in his hand such that once that virginal membrane is torn, none of his brothers or sisters will ever have to, nor can they, open that sealed place again. He's thus the peter rachem פטר רחם par excellent.

No other Jewish firstborn has ever claimed to have opened the womb, making him a peter rachem פטר רחם. The one associated with this claim is, historically speaking, directly, unequivocally, singularly, the only peter rachem פטר רחם in all of human history since the womb was still closed moments before he opened the membrane that had, in every other case, been already opened (by the male flesh crossed out, and which is in the crosshairs, of this examination).

Rabbi Hirsch, wrestling with the seriousness of the exegetical problem of referring to the Jewish firstborn as a peter rachem פטר רחם, implies that something about his birth means that he, the firstborn, is a requirement, a signifier, i.e., is responsible to some extent, for the sanctification of the Jewish birth of all who will come out of the womb after him. Using the vast historical context at AI's disposal, history records that the singular example of a literal peter rachem פטר רחם who opens up his mother's womb with nails in his hand is also alleged to open another womb, at a second birth (he's born again) transgressesing a whole other door, no one else has ever opened before, when, at his death, again, with nails in his hand, he tears open the hymen of the morgue, the kittel, in order to enter into a new kind of life into which no one has ever been reborn into before, and into which no one will ever be born again into afterward, unless they follow him through the door he alone, as the singular, double, "womb-opener," opens for anyone willing to parse the facts and figures of these things.



John
My mind takes me back to Abraham. I would like your take on how wikipedia starts describing his relationship to Jewry + other religions. "Abraham... ...is the common Hebrew patriarch of the Abrahamic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.[7] In Judaism, he is the founding father of the special relationship between the Jews and God; in Christianity, he is the spiritual progenitor of all believers, whether Jewish or non-Jewish;[c][8] and in Islam, he is a link in the chain of Islamic prophets that begins with Adam and culminates in Muhammad.[4]" This in reference to male or female passage.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Religions are not transmitted genetically.

The Jews transmitted their religion to their descendants because at that time they were a "theocratic" nation and religion was intrinsic to nationality. Thousands of years ago the Jewish religion stopped being directly related to nationality. Even people from other nations were allowed to convert to the Jewish religion by becoming proselytes.

Modern Israel is a nation with people of multiple religious beliefs, and that includes many Israelites of Jewish origin who are atheists. Now being an Israelite does not even have to do with practicing or not the religion that was ancestrally practiced by those ancient people. The modern laws of that nation resemble the laws of any nation in the modern world: birthright citizenship, naturalization, etc.

For that reason and taking into account that God had already prophesied and foreseen that this nation would cease to be the people chosen by Him for His purpose, when Scripture speaks of Israel or the term Jew with reference to our modern times, those concepts take on a very different meaning than they once had when that nation was made up of Jehovah's protégés.
I'm not saying that religions are transmitted genetically...but I wonder then why you think it is generally considered that a woman must be Jewish in order to "pass on" being a Jew (without their offspring converting).
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that religions are transmitted genetically...
I know.
but I wonder then why you think it is generally considered that a woman must be Jewish in order to "pass on" being a Jew (without their offspring converting).
I agree.

If that was not originally the case and religion is not transferred genetically ... why it's like that ... to whom ... since when?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I know.

I agree.

If that was not originally the case and religion is not transferred genetically ... why it's like that ... to whom ... since when?
Well, perhaps those who are in touch with whatever the religious authorities in this case say can answer. ?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
My mind takes me back to Abraham. I would like your take on how wikipedia starts describing his relationship to Jewry + other religions. "Abraham... ...is the common Hebrew patriarch of the Abrahamic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.[7] In Judaism, he is the founding father of the special relationship between the Jews and God; in Christianity, he is the spiritual progenitor of all believers, whether Jewish or non-Jewish;[c][8] and in Islam, he is a link in the chain of Islamic prophets that begins with Adam and culminates in Muhammad.[4]" This in reference to male or female passage.

Wikipedia sounds ok to me in a vague general sort of way. What do you mean by the last sentence in the message?



John
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Who's the first Jewish mother, and how did she become Jewish?

It's really a moot question since each religion sets up its own standards and beliefs as an ongoing process. All 613 Commandments in Torah were not given all at once. Christian beliefs and teachings weren't adopted at any one point either.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Jews are aware that throughout the law of Moses, taking a knife and drawing blood always signifies a sacrifice, but they're not keen on admitting it symbolizes the sacrifice of the fathering organ,

It's not sacrificed as mine is still here but wrinkled at 79 years of age.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's really a moot question since each religion sets up its own standards and beliefs as an ongoing process. All 613 Commandments in Torah were not given all at once. Christian beliefs and teachings weren't adopted at any one point either.
Yes but is there anything in those 613 commandments that asserts to be automatically considered a Jew by the Jewish authorities one must have a Jewish mother and not necessarily a jewish father?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Wikipedia sounds ok to me in a vague general sort of way. What do you mean by the last sentence in the message?



John
Good question. I'll explain later if possible because then I have to go into Abraham and his wives which becomes interesting enough. Nevertheless it was ABRAHAM that impregnated these women. I can see @metis idea though about how each religion kind of makes up its own rules.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes but is there anything in those 613 commandments that asserts to be automatically considered a Jew by the Jewish authorities one must have a Jewish mother and not necessarily a jewish father?

Not that I'm aware of, and I just went through the listing.

Judaism includes more than just what's in the Tanakh, as Jewish commentary, such as what we read in the Talmud, is very important because not everything is spelled out in what you call the OT.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
It's really a moot question since each religion sets up its own standards and beliefs as an ongoing process. All 613 Commandments in Torah were not given all at once. Christian beliefs and teachings weren't adopted at any one point either.

I completely reject your premise. I don't believe genuine faith is established by its adherents so much as they're moved, by faith and revelation, to accept absolute categories that non-believers tend to trivialize and relativize by believing there are no absolutes.

There was, absolutely, one, first, original, Jewish mother. The first human created by the hand of God. Jewish law is correct about Jewish identity coming exclusively through the mother even if it doesn't trifle with sacred things in order to try to understand or prove why Jewish law is correct.




John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
It's not sacrificed as mine is still here but wrinkled at 79 years of age.

Brit milah ritualizes a reality. Removing a slice, and some blood, is a "sign" אות of the "actual," absolute, utter, elimination of that organ in a singular conception/birth that's the transcendental signifier concerning all genuine religious thought.



John
 
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