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Who Or What Is Israel?

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Here are your EXACT words from post 420:
"Brit milah ritualizes a reality. Removing a slice, and some blood, is a "sign" אות of the "actual," absolute, utter, elimination of that organ in a singular conception/birth that's the transcendental signifier concerning all genuine religious thought."

It's somewhat difficult to take you seriously when you bold highlight "the elimination of that organ" as though not bold highlighting what follows means you can legitimately ignore that the "elimination" is said to be eliminating it from a conception and birth. Furthermore, a fair-minded reader might note that I spoke not just of eliminating that organ from conception and birth in general, but that I threw in "singular" in order to imply what's been implied throughout this thread by this interlocutor, i.e., that the ritual elimination practiced ritually (brit milah) is a hidden prophesy of a "singular" case of its elimination in the virgin birth of Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, since that organ was utterly eliminated so far as his conception and birth are concerned.

So no, it was NOT clear that you were saying "that circumcision symbolizes the destruction of that organ's role in sexual reproduction." Not only that, but this second claim of yours really makes no sense at all. If circumcision stopped the penis from reproducing, Jews would have vanished from the earth long, long ago.

Many of the religious Jews I've discussed these things with in the past tend to acknowledge Rabbi Samson Hirsch as a trustworthy proponent of Jewish thought. He says:
מילה [circumcision] is not a completion of, or supplement to, physical birth, but the beginning of a higher "octave." It marks the second, higher "birthday," man's entry into the Divine level of free and moral action. Physical birth belongs to the night . . . but מילה, birth as a Jew, belongs to the daytime.​

Clarifying the above statement he writes:

Therefore, the physical birth of the child is completed on the seventh day. The eighth day, the octave of birth, as it were, repeats the day of birth, but as a day of higher, spiritual birth for his Jewish mission and his Jewish destiny.​

According to Rabbi Hirsch, a Jew can be born physically the first day and not be born-again if what cutting and bleeding that flesh signifies doesn't apply. In this case not a single Jew would vanish for lack of being born-again. All that would be lost is a lot of born-again Jews. :cool:



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I appreciate your perspicacity in reference to the exact meanings of terms, and I can't say I'm up to par with you, so I did a little research on this regarding the name Jacob.
"Jacob is a classic and popular boy name. It comes from the Old Testament and means “supplanter,” which is often interpreted as someone who seizes, circumvents, or usurps.
In the book of Genesis, the twins Jacob and Esau were born to Isaac and Rebecca; Esau came first, making him the first-born son. When Jacob was born he was holding onto Esau’s heel. This foreshadows two future Biblical events where Jacob usurps or seizes Esau’s birthright as the first-born son." There's more, but I'll leave it at that now.

In Genesis 27:36 Esau says that Jacob is rightly named since he "supplanted" (KJV) Esau twice. The two times Jacob supplanted Esau are said to be when he took away his birthright and when he took away his blessing. The taking away of the birthright is when Esau gave it up willingly for a mess of pottage. When he stole the blessing is when Isaac gives it away to Jacob when he is (Isaac is) nearing death. Neither of these apply to the concept that Jacob's hand "opened the womb" (implying that he is the true firstborn not a usurper) since it (his hand) possessed Esau's "heel" as Esau is coming out of the womb heel first just like Zarah's hand opened the womb even though Perez, like Esau, comes out first.

There's a lot of theology associated with all this that we surely don't want to go into, nevertheless, in the presentation I gave, Zarah is directly related to Jacob as one of the cases of twins whereby the true firstborn is usurped by the other twin. Naturally this all applies to Cain and Abel too since Abel is the true firstborn while Cain is a usurper. Just as Cain slays Abel, Esau claims he's gonna slay Jacob once the mourning for Isaac is through. Jesus implies that Israel, like Cain, will slay him for the same reason Esau plans to slay Jacob, and Cain does slay Abel: Jesus is the true firstborn of God when Israel thinks they've got that title all wrapped up.

These concepts apply to the recent messages in that in Hebrew Zarah's name זרח is related to the word "Nazareth." Both have roots that mean to "rise" or "shine." The root word for "Nazareth" ---נצר ---means to sprout up out of ground as a basal shoot from a root. The basal shoot נצר springs forth as a Branch asexually such that the name of the city ---Nazareth---speaks of an asexual branch springing up from untilled soil. Idea being that every birth from Cain to Jesus of Nazareth represents usurpers born ahead of the true firstborn of creation (Colossians 1:15) who's not only born after a whole load of usurpers, but who was in the first human from the time God breathed life into the first human such that like the plants in Genesis before the fall, the true firstborn of creation was slated to rise, shine, open the closed womb of the first human, from an asexual conception that needn't eliminate the organ ritually eliminated by circumcision since it didn't yet exist. What was added to the human race in Genesis 2:21 (binary gender and thus the possiblility of phallic-sex) is removed, symbolically, by Abraham in Genesis 17, and was non-existent, as was intended for the first birth, in Jesus' conception and birth in Matthew where Jesus, like Jacob and Zarah before him, comes out of the womb late, when he's really first.

Every Jew born before Jesus, like every Gentile born before Jesus, is, like Cain, Perez, and Esau, usurpers. Jesus was in ha-adam from the moment God breathed life into ha-adam. His birth was posponed a long time. He was stillborn. But praise God he was still born.



John
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's somewhat difficult to take you seriously when you bold highlight "the elimination of that organ" as though not bold highlighting what follows means you can legitimately ignore that the "elimination" is said to be eliminating it from a conception and birth.
If I say, "I'm going to junk the car that my father rebuilt," it means I am junking a car. It doesn't mean I'm preventing my father from rebuilding cars.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In Genesis 27:36 Esau says that Jacob is rightly named since he "supplanted" (KJV) Esau twice. The two times Jacob supplanted Esau are said to be when he took away his birthright and when he took away his blessing. The taking away of the birthright is when Esau gave it up willingly for a mess of pottage. When he stole the blessing is when Isaac gives it away to Jacob when he is (Isaac is) nearing death. Neither of these apply to the concept that Jacob's hand "opened the womb" (implying that he is the true firstborn not a usurper) since it (his hand) possessed Esau's "heel" as Esau is coming out of the womb heel first just like Zarah's hand opened the womb even though Perez, like Esau, comes out first.

There's a lot of theology associated with all this that we surely don't want to go into, nevertheless, in the presentation I gave, Zarah is directly related to Jacob as one of the cases of twins whereby the true firstborn is usurped by the other twin. Naturally this all applies to Cain and Abel too since Abel is the true firstborn while Cain is a usurper. Just as Cain slays Abel, Esau claims he's gonna slay Jacob once the mourning for Isaac is through. Jesus implies that Israel, like Cain, will slay him for the same reason Esau plans to slay Jacob, and Cain does slay Abel: Jesus is the true firstborn of God when Israel thinks they've got that title all wrapped up.
....

John
Please explain to me where you're getting the idea about Jacob's hand "opening the womb," if I understand you correctly, and how this means he was the firstborn when everything in the account indicates (says) he was not. Thank you.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Please explain to me where you're getting the idea about Jacob's hand "opening the womb," if I understand you correctly, and how this means he was the firstborn when everything in the account indicates (says) he was not. Thank you.

. . . You sure you want to go down that road? :oops:

In biblical exegesis, when you find an ironic statement that seems to make no sense it's often the key to the deeper meaning hidden beneath the fore skene of the narrative. What does it mean to say Jacob's "hand" יד takes hold of, or possession of, Esau's "heel" עקב? -----Ironically, the two words found in Genesis 25:26 ("heel" עקב and "hand" יד) are used elsewhere in the Tanakh to hide the fact that the text is speaking of the male-organ. In a euphemistic-literality, so to say, Jacob's hand is going to help him take possession of the inheritance that usually comes (another euphemistic-literality) through the male-organ.

The birth narrative claims a great battle takes place in Rebecca's womb between Esau and Jacob. The battle is the battle between patrilineal inheritance, versus materilinial inheritance. Esau is his father's firstborn lanahalah לנחלה, while Jacob uniquely represents the mother's firstborn ben lakohen ב׳ לכהן (Genesis 25:28). -----Which all segues back to the message I've been trying to get back to for the last day or two ---message #1428---which sports a quotation from the link you gave to the My Jewish Learning website. That message asks (ala the quotation from My Jewish Learning) the question that ties all of this together: why, if worldly inheritance comes through the father (patrilineage, male-organ-ordained) does Jewish identity come through the mother? The answer to that question is the context for what's going on when, as the knockout blow of the cosmic battle taking place in Rebecca's womb, Jacob's "hand" takes possession of Esau's "heel."



John
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
. . . You sure you want to go down that road? :oops:

In biblical exegesis, when you find an ironic statement that seems to make no sense it's often the key to the deeper meaning hidden beneath the fore skene of the narrative. What does it mean to say Jacob's "hand" יד takes hold of, or possession of, Esau's "heel" עקב? -----Ironically, the two words found in Genesis 25:26 ("heel" עקב and "hand" יד) are used elsewhere in the Tanakh to hide the fact that the text is speaking of the male-organ. In a euphemistic literality, so to say, Jacob's hand is going to help him take possession of the inheritance that usually comes (another euphemistic literality) through the male-organ.

The birth narrative claims a great battle takes place in Rebecca's womb between Esau and Jacob. The battle is the battle between patrilineal inheritance, versus materilinial inheritance. Esau is his father's firstborn lanahalah לנחלה, while Jacob uniquely represents the mother's firstborn ben lakohen ב׳ לכהן (Genesis 25:28). -----Which all segues back to the message I've been trying to get back to for the last day or two ---message #1428---which sports a quotation from the link you gave to the My Jewish Learning website. That message asks (ala the quotation from My Jewish Learning) the question that ties all of this together: why, if worldly inheritance comes through the father (patrilineage, male-organ-ordained) does Jewish identity come through the mother? The answer to that question is the context for what's going on when, as the knockout blow of the cosmic battle taking place in Rebecca's womb, Jacob's "hand" takes possession of Esau's "heel."



John
Here, I'm only guessing, but IF Jacob's hand grabbed Esau's heel and it keeps saying Esau was the firstborn, I am not an obstetrician, but somehow I think Esau came out first...no big deal, the Bible keeps talking about it--that Esau was firstborn. I can't see what the problem is yet. (Insofar as your idea is concerned, do you mean that Jacob really emerged first from Rebekah's womb? not sure what you think here.)
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Here, I'm only guessing, but IF Jacob's hand grabbed Esau's heel and it keeps saying Esau was the firstborn, I am not an obstetrician, but somehow I think Esau came out first...no big deal, the Bible keeps talking about it--that Esau was firstborn. I can't see what the problem is yet. (Insofar as your idea is concerned, do you mean that Jacob really emerged first from Rebekah's womb? not sure what you think here.)

In Exodus 13:2, we read the Lord telling Moses to sanctify all the firstborn, i.e., all those who "open the womb" פטר כל–רחם. He tells Moses that all "womb openers" uniquely belongs to him; which is to say all "womb openers" (the mother's firstborn, ben lakohen ב׳ לכהן) will be his priests.

Thus, prior to the golden calf fiasco at Horeb, all Jewish mother's firstborn ("womb openers" פטר רחם) were slated to be priests in the house of God (they all belong to God). But because of the fall at Horeb, and since only the Levites were willing to slay their brethren at Moses' command, God established a specialized-priesthood (the Levitical priests) to replace the former universal priesthood of Jewish mother's firstborn. After the failure at Horeb, the priesthood would come only through the Levites. Which is to say that though formerly the priesthood was transferred only through a Jewish mother, after the fall at Horeb, the father's fathering-organ gets into the act since tribal identity is patrilineal, i.e., an inheritance through the father.

The priesthood, which wasn't patrilineal before the horrible fall at Horeb, now became related to tribal identity, and thus patrilineage (it could be inherited through the father rather than the mother). This priesthood (the Levites), which wasn't a worldly inheritance (related to the father) prior to Horeb (it depended only on being the firstborn of a Jewish mother), now became a worldly inheritance related to who your father is, and what tribe he's from. Which is to say that whereas prior to the horror at Horeb a mother's firstborn/womb-opener inherited his Jewish identity and the priesthood exclusively through the mother, after the fall at Horeb the father's fathering-organ got into the act such that now the father's testes got to testify concerning what was originally based soley on the mother.

Flashback from horrible Horeb to Esau and Jacob. For in their day inheritance of the priesthood and Jewish identity came exclusivelyh through the "womb opener" (the mother's firstborn) since the Levitical priethood, based on what tribe your father comes from, didn't yet exist. At that time it's of the utmost importance to know, if you have twins, which one "opens the womb" first since he's the favored firstborn who inherits Jewish identity and the priesthood.

Voila! This is the context for the story of Perez and Zarah. Zarah's "hand" comes out first, but then retreats back into the womb (having had a scarlet string attached), while Perez is thereafter born before Zarah. If not for the red thread, Perez would inherit the priesthood as the mother's firstborn and Zarah would be falsely reckoned the younger brother.

In the story of the birth of Esau and Jacob, Esau's "heel" (euphemism and all) "opens the womb" with Jacob's hand wrapped around it so that if there were a midwife on the scene, in the text, ala the story of the birth of Perez and Zarah, a scarlet string would be attached to Jacob's hand so that although Esau, like Perez, is born first, Jacob, his hand coming out ahead of Esau's "heel" by a finger's breadth, is thus the true firstborn (since his hand opens the womb), and Esau, like Perez, is the usurper who comes out first when he's actually the younger.

In Hebrew, the word for Esau's "heel" is עקב. Add the letter yod as a prefix and you get the name Jacob יעקב. As a prefix, the yod tells us Jacob's name is the third-person future-tense of the word for "heel" עקב. As noted previously, the Hebrew word "heel" עקב, is used in other places in the Tanakh to cover up the fact that its speaking of the phallus. And since the literal meaning of the word means "supplanter," or "usurper," it means Esau's "heel," like every "heel" (male-organ) used to "father" offspring, is a "usurper," or "supplanter" (see signature at the bottom of this page). This means the name "Jacob" (עקב "heel" with a yod prefix), signifies that Jacob is the name/person whose birth signifies the "usurping of the usurper, the supplanter of the supplanter" (i.e, the third-person future tense of the word). His birth, i.e., his hand opening the womb rather than the usurping organ opening the womb, that is, Jacob's "hand" (rather than the organ that usurps every birth from Cain to Christ), supplants, usurps the "heel" (male-organ) that's been arrogantly and errantly opening the womb from Cain to Christ.

Someone will say, but the story of Perez and Zarah comes after the story of Esau and Jacob? And in Judaism the firstborn narrative supplants latter stories, the earlier story being the firstborn story so far as Judaism is concerned.

Which is the primary point of all this since spiritually speaking you need the story of Perez and Zarah to properly interpret the story of Jacob's hand being wrapped around Esau's usurper such that using the later story, which is thus the true firstborn story, we can know that Jacob's hand beats Esau's usurping organ to the punch by a hand's breadth so far as opening the womb is concerned, so that we know the spiritual truth that Jacob isn't a usurper, Esau is. Jacob is the one who usurps the usurper ---as his name implies.

Flash forward to the story of Jesus' hand opening the womb when there's neither a twin in that womb nor a fathering-organ involved in opening it prior to Jesus's conception and birth. His hand opens a completely closed, hermetically sealed, womb (a virgin's closed hymen), to signify that he's the womb-opener par excellent. His birth completely supplants the supplanter, the male-organ, which is the unholy "heel" in the Gospels, the organ Jesus' birth completely usurps in every way (see signature at bottom of page).

The story of Jesus' virgin birth is the scarlet string attached ---retroactively ----to Jacob's hand, telling us that even though the malfeasant Masoretic text would like you to believe Jacob stole the right of the firstborn, and Judaism seconds that emotion, since she thinks Jesus too is a supplanter (rather than the supplater of the usurpers par excellent), in truth neither Jacob nor Jesus are usurpers, but rather, the sanctified supplanters of the profane usurpers. Jesus and Jacob supplant the organ and all organs that would have you believe Jacob and Jesus are ********, chisselers, cheeters, rather than those who are being cheated in the fallacious Masoretic rendition of these narratives.



John
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
And so? Maybe @metis can add something. Or @IndigoChild5559 even though she's not talking to me.
@IndigoChild5559 has been taught that Jews/Israel are determined by the Mothers Genes or Gentile Full Conversion to the Religion. The Religion that teaches an Atheist or Apostate can be Israel is False, therefore, Full Gentile Conversion to such a Religion is Not a Real Conversion to Israel. Even a Lukewarm Practitioner of the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel is Not Israel given that Elohim/God Demands Total Devotion to His Religion to Be Israel.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
@IndigoChild5559 has been taught that Jews/Israel are determined by the Mothers Genes
Why is it that people constantly bring genetics/DNA/blood into the conversation?????? Don't you guys understand that when Jewish law was formed, no one had any concept of DNA or genetics? Mendel didn't begin his experiments on heredity in garden peas between 1856 and 1863.

Yes, if you have a Jewish mom, it makes you a Jew. It has nothing to do with genes. If you went before a Jewish tribunal and said, "I took a DNA test and have Jewish ancestry. Am I a Jew?" They would say no.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
What laws by the way? What's the message? Total obedience? So then not all called Jews are...
Romans 7:14

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.



Total Devotion/Obedience to All The Laws of Moses including the Sacrificial Produces Israel. I speak of Spiritual Israel.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Why is it that people constantly bring genetics/DNA/blood into the conversation?????? Don't you guys understand that when Jewish law was formed, no one had any concept of DNA or genetics? Mendel didn't begin his experiments on heredity in garden peas between 1856 and 1863.

Yes, if you have a Jewish mom, it makes you a Jew. It has nothing to do with genes. If you went before a Jewish tribunal and said, "I took a DNA test and have Jewish ancestry. Am I a Jew?" They would say no.
We are always talking about Genetics/DNA/Blood because we know that those professing themselves to be Jews/Israel has made Genetics/DNA/Blood the Dominant Factor. Genetics is just another word for Biological/Racial Inheritance.


Judaism: Who Is A Jew?

by Rebecca Weiner

Nation and Culture

Judaism is a religion as well as a nation and culture. Approximately 14.7 million people worldwide identify as Jewish, with the vast majority living in either the United States or Israel.

Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

Today, Judaism is comprised of four major movements: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. Most Israelis are often described as “secular,” but the majority observe Jewish holidays and are very knowledgeable about Jewish history and culture, which is taught in public school. The Conservative and Reform movements are particularly strong in the United States but have yet to make significant inroads in Israel. Reconstructionism is a small and relatively new movement. Orthodoxy has grown in recent years in the United States and remains the strongest movement in Israel. The Orthodox, more so than the other movements, are also divided among different sects.

The Jewish movements have different interpretations of the Torah, which lead to different rituals, spiritual practices and beliefs. The diversity of beliefs and practices has led to different definitions of “Who is a Jew.” This question is not just philosophical, it has political and legal ramifications. In Israel, questions of Jewishness have implications for immigration, conversion, marriage, divorce, and the allocation of government money.



What you Define to be Jew is Not the same as my Definition. An Atheist, Apostate, Secular person or Lukewarm Practitioner cannot be a Jew/Israel because Jew/Israel is Produced and Maintained through Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If the parents requested it, which mine did.
OK, thank you. I wasn't sure if doctors do it or did it for all newborn boys as a matter of course. I really must review what the Bible says about circumcision. I know there was a problem with Moses and Zipporah and circumcision.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Throughout the Tanakh, the drawing of blood always signifies death to the organ from which the blood is drawn. Since circumcision is a ritual, it's a sign, symbol, and not the reality it merely signifies, we can know that it signifies the death, the sacrifice, of the organ from whence the blood is drawn.

Please provide evidence for this as I have never run across this before or had as such explained by the three rabbis and the mohel that way prior or after the procedure.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We are always talking about Genetics/DNA/Blood because we know that those professing themselves to be Jews/Israel has made Genetics/DNA/Blood the Dominant Factor. Genetics is just another word for Biological/Racial Inheritance.


Judaism: Who Is A Jew?

by Rebecca Weiner

Nation and Culture

Judaism is a religion as well as a nation and culture. Approximately 14.7 million people worldwide identify as Jewish, with the vast majority living in either the United States or Israel.

Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

Today, Judaism is comprised of four major movements: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. Most Israelis are often described as “secular,” but the majority observe Jewish holidays and are very knowledgeable about Jewish history and culture, which is taught in public school. The Conservative and Reform movements are particularly strong in the United States but have yet to make significant inroads in Israel. Reconstructionism is a small and relatively new movement. Orthodoxy has grown in recent years in the United States and remains the strongest movement in Israel. The Orthodox, more so than the other movements, are also divided among different sects.

The Jewish movements have different interpretations of the Torah, which lead to different rituals, spiritual practices and beliefs. The diversity of beliefs and practices has led to different definitions of “Who is a Jew.” This question is not just philosophical, it has political and legal ramifications. In Israel, questions of Jewishness have implications for immigration, conversion, marriage, divorce, and the allocation of government money.



What you Define to be Jew is Not the same as my Definition. An Atheist, Apostate, Secular person or Lukewarm Practitioner cannot be a Jew/Israel because Jew/Israel is Produced and Maintained through Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel.
That is interesting. And I have a feeling that some here might disagree.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Please provide evidence for this as I have never run across this before or had as such explained by the three rabbis and the mohel that way prior or after the procedure.

Not sure what specifically you're seeking evidence for? It's fairly well-known that circumcision represent sacrifice. Also that blood is a symbol of death throughout the Tanakh (no sacrifice, save one that's not in the Tanakh, lives to tell about it). To assume that taking a knife and bleeding flesh such that the blood of the ritual is sanctifying (circumcision blood is so clean and sanctifying that it can be placed on a wimple that's wrapped around the Torah scroll), and not equate the ritual with sacrifice would be a pretty drastic attempt to no go where the ritual is leading.

In various examples of midrash (say Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezar), and in the Talmud too, the blood of the paschal lamb is said to represent the blood of Abraham's circumcision therein paralleling the sacrifice of the lamb with the sacrifice of the limb.



John
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not sure what specifically you're seeking evidence for? It's fairly well-known that circumcision represent sacrifice. Also that blood is a symbol of death throughout the Tanakh (no sacrifice, save one that's not in the Tanakh, lives to tell about it). To assume that taking a knife and bleeding flesh such that the blood of the ritual is sanctifying (circumcision blood is so clean and sanctifying that it can be placed on a wimple that's wrapped around the Torah scroll), and not equate the ritual with sacrifice would be a pretty drastic attempt to no go where the ritual is leading.

In various examples of midrash (say Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezar), and in the Talmud too, the blood of the paschal lamb is said to represent the blood of Abraham's circumcision therein paralleling the sacrifice of the lamb with the sacrifice of the limb.



John

You have not provided the evidence asked for, and both @IndigoChild5559 and I were/are into Judaism for decades, and I also taught it but never ran across your claim.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not sure what specifically you're seeking evidence for? It's fairly well-known that circumcision represent sacrifice. Also that blood is a symbol of death throughout the Tanakh (no sacrifice, save one that's not in the Tanakh, lives to tell about it). To assume that taking a knife and bleeding flesh such that the blood of the ritual is sanctifying (circumcision blood is so clean and sanctifying that it can be placed on a wimple that's wrapped around the Torah scroll), and not equate the ritual with sacrifice would be a pretty drastic attempt to no go where the ritual is leading.

In various examples of midrash (say Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezar), and in the Talmud too, the blood of the paschal lamb is said to represent the blood of Abraham's circumcision therein paralleling the sacrifice of the lamb with the sacrifice of the limb.



John
Apparently some might feel the Talmud is equal to the Tanach (the Bible commonly known as the Old Testament). Not everyone believes that it is equal to the Tanach.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Looking at the title of the thread, people can obviously believe what they want to, whether it makes sense or not to me. As far as what constitutes Israel, the Bible says at Galatians 6: "For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation.
16Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule, even to the
Israel of God." So according to the holy scriptures, I believe that the "Israel of God" is referring to something other than what many might consider people as Jews.
 
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