Who taught Christianity to Paul?

[SkylarHunter]

Historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, Wikipedia is such a high authority we can't possible believe anything else...

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

What would puts you the sleep are the kinds of questions that used to keep me up (and to some extent still do, albeit in a different way and lacking completely older motivations).

Young men late in the night
Toss in their beds
Their pillows do not comfort
Their uneasy heads
-Auden


Or perhaps a more apropos:

I saw a man pursuing the horizon
Round and round they sped
I was disturbed at this; I accosted the man
"It is futile" I said "you can never-'
"You lie" he cried
And ran on

-Stephen Crane

Yeah, those are both great. I remember when you used the Auden as your tag line, but I find the Crane more interesting.

I've always felt like a man who chases the horizon knowing full well that it's futile but unable to stop the pursuit.

 

[Boyd]

Nope.

Jesus real apostles probably headed back to Galilee where they lived once their teacher died.

Think about it, the movement did nothing in Israel, it only grew in the Diaspora with Gnetiles and Proselytes

The gospel authors are unknown, and its likely his real apostles were illiterate peasants with no means to run around the Diaspora teaching.

I would partially disagree with this. While some of the apostles would have went back to Galilee (and I think this is where the doubting Thomas story originated out of, as in, it was very well known that some of the apostles doubted the resurrection story), it can be quite certain that at least Peter and John stayed true to the movement, which then went under James (the brother of Jesus).

It can also be said with reasonable certainty that Paul later learned from Peter. But this would only have been quite some time after.

Paul went out and hunted down the real apsotles according to his own words, did he not?

This is not some inoccent Hellenistic guy who was taking theology lessons from illiterate Galileans.

Paul didn't say he hunted actual apostles. He said he pursued those who followed Jesus, but he doesn't state who he actually went after. It would seem he did not go after apostles though, as Paul says that he was unknown, by sight, in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is where, as far as we know, the apostles were (at least those who continued).

Also, Paul does have a change of heart, and later, we are told, goes and speaks with Peter (or the Greek infers that he learned from Peter).

Yes he did meet with the apostles, but Paul himself claims that he didn't learn about Jesus from them. Perhaps Paul is lying about this, but that is what he wrote.

It is not as simple as that. Paul states both. On one hand, Paul does state that the gospel he received (at least up to that point) was not learned from any man, but given by Jesus. At other times, he implies that he learned from Peter, or that he is handing down other traditions.

Paul wasn't impressed by the Jerusalem group, they agreed to disagree and go their own separate ways.

That's not quite it. Paul agreed to abide by what the Jerusalem group commanded. That is a large reason why he ended up taking up the offering for the Jerusalem group, which was a large focus of his mission.

It is also why Paul goes to the Jerusalem group for approval of his mission. Paul knew who was in charge, and it was the Jerusalem group.

Read through 1 Corinthians and find out.


Perhaps this has something to do with it -


1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:


He definitely had authority problems -

That really isn't a problem with authority. That is making people know that what he is saying is no longer from Jesus, but his own ideas. He didn't want to attribute to Jesus things that Jesus did not say. That is not a problem with authority, but being respectful.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Pauls story is an interesting one. I'm curious about the timeline.

Acts for instance seems to indicate that shortly after Jesus's death were new disciples chosen to be part of the twelve and that Stephen was among those chosen. Stephen was then stoned when Paul was a young man.

Then we skip to the damascus trip...how far inbetween did that happen?

 

[Boyd]

Pauls story is an interesting one. I'm curious about the timeline.

Acts for instance seems to indicate that shortly after Jesus's death were new disciples chosen to be part of the twelve and that Stephen was among those chosen. Stephen was then stoned when Paul was a young man.

Then we skip to the damascus trip...how far inbetween did that happen?

The timeline in Acts isn't necessarily accurate. The Stephen story, for example, probably never actually had Paul there. If Paul was there, then the people in Jerusalem would have seen him before, but Paul states that they did not know him by face.

I would place Paul having gone to Arabia for an extended time instead, and doing a mission there, one that horribly failed.

 

[outhouse]

Yes, Wikipedia is such a high authority we can't possible believe anything else...

Talk to any credible scholar, this is just well known history.

Maybe instead of going "NUH UH" you could tell me why Pauls accounts differ so much from those of Acts regarding Paul himself, and why we should follow Acts over Paul himself.

Historians describe Acts as a excellent writer who made these miraculous stories to draw the reader in to peak interest in those that picked up his books.

 

[outhouse]

Paul didn't say he hunted actual apostles.
.

If he did, would he have stated that? I dont think he would.

Jerusalem is where, as far as we know, the apostles were (at least those who continued).

All we know about this is what Paul said. And as far as I am concerned, Paul wrote fiction as well as theology. Paul wrote abourt himself like a first century superstar, in prison more, beaten more, shipwrecked more, more passion, more angry, more devoted, ect ect ect.

I think there was a house in Jerusalem that followed Jesus Judaism in a more Hellenistic way then the original movement in Galilee. Much more Judaism then Paul taught. As would be expected for a Jewish movement in Jerusalem.

But the real Galilean apostles? Think about it, there movement was one of the poor oppressed peasants VS Hellenistic Judaism due to the socioeconomic differences. Just because their leader died I see no reason to think they did a 180 and accepted their enemies as brothers.

 

[Boyd]

If he did, would he have stated that? I dont think he would.

He didn't state he hunted the apostles though. He said he persecuted the church, which is quite vague. He also states that he had not gone down to Jerusalem. This is important as it is where the apostles (those continuing with the movement) remained.

From what can be gathered, Paul more or less persecuted congregations in his area.

All we know about this is what Paul said. And as far as I am concerned, Paul wrote fiction as well as theology. Paul wrote abourt himself like a first century superstar, in prison more, beaten more, shipwrecked more, more passion, more angry, more devoted, ect ect ect.

I would disagree here. Paul didn't write much about himself at all. He does mention being in prison, but it generally is a passing phrase; as in, I'm writing you from prison.

He only writes about a shipwreck briefly, and again, just a passing mention. The superstar story about the shipwreck is seen in Acts.

Even being beaten, it is only in passing. And generally by Jewish authority (which is important, as it shows that he was still considered a Jew by others, and considered himself a Jew).

The superstar ideas really come from Acts. Paul does mention his hard work, but it is quite realistic seeing how extensively he traveled. And it is always only in passing.

For the vast majority of Paul's writing, he is only addressing problems that are arising.

I think there was a house in Jerusalem that followed Jesus Judaism in a more Hellenistic way then the original movement in Galilee. Much more Judaism then Paul taught. As would be expected for a Jewish movement in Jerusalem.

I am curious as to why you think the movement in Jerusalem would be more Hellenistic? From what can be gathered, those who formed the Jerusalem group were previous apostles of Jesus, as well as his brother (all from Galilee). What would have transformed their former Galilean ideas into a more Hellenistic view (also, how do you define Hellenistic? Galilee was also influenced by Hellenism, so to what level are you speaking about).

For Paul though, something that must be remembered is that he never pretends to teach Judaism in a strict sense. He, himself, remains Jewish, but he acknowledges that his audience is gentile, and thus do not have to keep the Jewish laws. Looking at Paul's audience, it only makes sense for him to address them with less Jewish thought, after all, they were not Jews. This also plays into Paul's eschatological idea, as he thought the end was very near. That being so, following the Hebrew prophets, he found a need to reach out to the "nations" as the Hebrew prophets had spoken of.

But the real Galilean apostles? Think about it, there movement was one of the poor oppressed peasants VS Hellenistic Judaism due to the socioeconomic differences. Just because their leader died I see no reason to think they did a 180 and accepted their enemies as brothers.

I don't see a distinction between Galilean and Hellenistic Judaism though. I did in my former years, but after the ground break work of E.P. Sanders, and those using him as a foundation, such an idea really has disappeared.

So I don't think a 180 needs to be imagined, but instead, a refocus of what Judaism was at that time.

 

[outhouse]

, but instead, a refocus of what Judaism was at that time.

And that is understudied, as well as Hellenism within Judaism. [taking into account Hellenism permiated Jewish society at different percentages]

We know Judaism was wide and varied, and the definition of Judaism just as diverse.


Do you think Galilean Zealots would embrace their Hellenistic oppressors?

Do you think the socioeconomic difference between Nazareth peasant Jews and Antipas cronies in Sepphoris had a negative effect on the peasant class in Galilee?

Did Jews accept their Hellenistic Jewish oppressors

 

[ChristineES]

Yes he did meet with the apostles, but Paul himself claims that he didn't learn about Jesus from them. Perhaps Paul is lying about this, but that is what he wrote.

There is no way of knowing.

 

[outhouse]

There is no way of knowing.

I think there is a way of knowing.

No one to date has ever recieved a education on something from nowhere. Everyone has to learn something from someone.


Paul was no exception.

This is one reason why I have no trust at all in paul.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Paul had a background in Judaism, he took that background and expanded it. It's not the first time that has ever happened. He wouldn't have had to been taught by anyone. He had a hellenistic background, familiarity with greek literature and philosophy, he probably wasn't an idiot. He could teach himself.

 

[Ingledsva]

Read through 1 Corinthians and find out.


Perhaps this has something to do with it -


1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:


He definitely had authority problems -


1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

1Co 9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

1Co 9:3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

...

That really isn't a problem with authority. That is making people know that what he is saying is no longer from Jesus, but his own ideas. He didn't want to attribute to Jesus things that Jesus did not say. That is not a problem with authority, but being respectful.

The text shows that he had a problem with his authority. They are questioning his right to claim to be an apostle and teach/lead them.


Also, as to his "being respectful to Jesus," - it is known, and discussed, among Biblical scholars, that the new Christian ideas appear to be different then those that the Hebrew and Jesus taught. These texts appear to be challenging him for exactly those reasons.



*

 

[outhouse]

Paul had a background in Judaism, he took that background and expanded it. It's not the first time that has ever happened. He wouldn't have had to been taught by anyone. He had a hellenistic background, familiarity with greek literature and philosophy, he probably wasn't an idiot. He could teach himself.

You cant teach yourself a new movement created by someone else.

Just so you know, Pauls Judaism has always and still is in question.


Again, historians dont trust Paul and he has given plenty of reasons for them to be skeptical.

Jews followed him around in Antioch and Iconium and tried to incite violence against him.

He persecuted Jews

Paul used Greek philosphy to pervert the OT to meet his own needs, to a more Hellenistic version.

 

[outhouse]

The text shows that he had a problem with his authority. They are questioning his right to claim to be an apostle and teach/lead them.


Also, as to his "being respectful to Jesus," - it is known, and discussed, among Biblical scholars, that the new Christian ideas appear to be different then those that the Hebrew and Jesus taught. These texts appear to be challenging him for exactly those reasons.



*

So true.

The movement grew in the Disapora within Gentile communities and failed in Judaism from the start. A messiah wasnt supposed to die like that.

 

[Vouthon]

Paul used Greek philosphy to pervert the OT to meet his own needs, to a more Hellenistic version.

That is a highly dubious statement. As you know scholars are very divided as to Paul's theology, so too come down so strongly as to suggest that he is some sort of Hellenist, paganizing Judaism with Greek philosophical concepts and present it as fact, is questionable scholarship.

 

[outhouse]

That is a highly dubious statement. As you know scholars are very divided as to Paul's theology, so too come down so strongly as to suggest that he is some sort of Hellenist, paganizing Judaism with Greek philosophical concepts and present it as fact, is questionable scholarship.

Nonsense brother

It was actually quite common before the temple fell.

There were divisions between Hellenistic Judaism and Judaism, and Paul was obviously a Hellenistic Jew.

Paul the Apostle and Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In A Radical Jew, Boyarin argues that Paul the Apostle combined the life of Jesus with Greek philosophy to reinterpret the Hebrew Bible in terms of the Platonic opposition between the ideal (which is real) and the material (which is false).


AND

Hellenistic Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hellenistic Judaism was a form of Judaism in the ancient world that combined Jewish religious tradition with elements of Greek culture

Jewish life in both Judea and the diaspora was influenced by the culture and language of Hellenism, and in Judah relations deteriorated between Hellenized Jews and traditionalists.

Some scholars[6] consider Paul of Tarsus to be a Hellenist as well, even though he himself claimed to be a Pharisee (Acts 23:6).

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

You cant teach yourself a new movement created by someone else.

Just so you know, Pauls Judaism has always and still is in question.


Again, historians dont trust Paul and he has given plenty of reasons for them to be skeptical.

Jews followed him around in Antioch and Iconium and tried to incite violence against him.

He persecuted Jews

Paul used Greek philosphy to pervert the OT to meet his own needs, to a more Hellenistic version.

Yes you can. Mostly because it doesn't have to be exactly what the person taught.

Even if his authenticity is in question, the idea that Paul could not have taken the idea of Christ as the Messiah and ran with it doesn't make much sense. Several times in history we have seen people take religious beliefs and combine them with new experiences and thoughts. What Paul knew was Judaism, what he took was the idea of the old covenant and the idea of the messiah to nullify the need of the old covenant for the Gentiles. Essentially Paul may have felt that he was fulfilling the idea that Israel would be a light unto the world and that light was Christ.

 

[outhouse]

Yes you can. Mostly because it doesn't have to be exactly what the person taught.

Even if his authenticity is in question, the idea that Paul could not have taken the idea of Christ as the Messiah and ran with it doesn't make much sense. Several times in history we have seen people take religious beliefs and combine them with new experiences and thoughts. What Paul knew was Judaism, what he took was the idea of the old covenant and the idea of the messiah to nullify the need of the old covenant for the Gentiles. Essentially Paul may have felt that he was fulfilling the idea that Israel would be a light unto the world and that light was Christ.

True

But, Paul didnt invent the movement. Paul was one of many teacgers at that time. Paul tells us this himself.

The movement grew in the Diaspora, including its theology and mythology. Thus this was a Hellenistic movement and Paul was just one of many teachers and his teachings would have been normal for Hellenist, if not a bit extreme. We see later authors try and soften his views up a a little, probably his disciples who's letters are attributed to paul yet we know they were not from Pauls hand.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

True

But, Paul didnt invent the movement. Paul was one of many teacgers at that time. Paul tells us this himself.

The movement grew in the Diaspora, including its theology and mythology. Thus this was a Hellenistic movement and Paul was just one of many teachers and his teachings would have been normal for Hellenist, if not a bit extreme. We see later authors try and soften his views up a a little, probably his disciples who's letters are attributed to paul yet we know they were not from Pauls hand.

Right but the question was "who taught christianity to paul" I don't think anyone had to teach him about it. He took his past experiences and what he experienced by "seeing" Christ and move forward with it.