Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[CG Didymus]

You are now seeing the wisdom on why some leave the faith. They still are not ready for a wider unity.

They are unable to submit to the wider unity. They feel their opinions trump the collective. It may even be they had a good case, but Abdul'baha has advised us to submit.

We are told to submit to the elected decision making process. Even if it is flawed, by submitting it allows, the balance to be righted.

Regards Tony

I'm concerned that it isn't a "wider" unity but a top down authoritarian rule. And whatever the leaders at the top say, a good Baha'i is obligated to submit. Then what do you do with those that don't want to submit? Have a board member give them a talking to? And if they still don't submit, then sanction them or kick them out?

 

[CG Didymus]

Scriptures (in abrahamic tradition) are given through prophets. So it is up to each follower to ha e faith in the prophets giving true messages and teachings from God. And in time there will be many prophets who will deliver teachings from God.

Do you see Baha'u'llah as being one of those prophets?

 

[rational experiences]

Humans words don't talk like bahuallah anymore. Proof we aren't using consciousness as he had.

I loved the old way of speech.

Which proves by language today a huge distressed mind brain of humanity.

Were losing what we promised we would gain. Healing.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you see Baha'u'llah as being one of those prophets?

My personally view is that Baha'u'llah is one of the prophets who have lived yes. Does that make me a Baha'i? No personally i do not hold on to any religious lable anymore.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm concerned that it isn't a "wider" unity but a top down authoritarian rule. And whatever the leaders at the top say, a good Baha'i is obligated to submit. Then what do you do with those that don't want to submit? Have a board member give them a talking to? And if they still don't submit, then sanction them or kick them out?

That is not the spirit it works in CG.

If one does not want to submit to those that are elected, I would strongly suggest they are not ready to be a Baha'i.

On the Local and National level, if one is not happy with a decision, one can asked the Universal Justice for clarification. That answer requires submission.

I did this once and was rightly put in my place by the Universal House of Jusrice reply.

I need to read that, to see that I needed to submit to what an NSA had already offered, that it was me that was pig-headed.

That issue was about a Temple for the Solomon Islands in Honiara. At least I got to pray on the site where it will be built, on many weekends, over a couple of years.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

My father eternal being first then human father second doesn't seek justice.

As he isn't the human who chose to change natural life.

His spirituality is naturally present in our consciousness. And he allows me to know and understand his truth.

Organisation isn't going to beat or win over organisation.

Family is a human first not a label.

When you can release all claims of being superior only then do you own the mutual humans position.

As to argue rights is position the organisation.

Earths garden is position one.

Position two is to seek shelter.

Position three who greets you... a life equal or a superior human?

 

[KWED]

First of all, i do not speak for others than my self, i do not speak from any religion, only from my own experience through many years as a seeker. So my answers could sound different than what other people give you.

Some religions do "require" worship yes, but it comes down to each individual person in how much they worship. Some worship a lot, others less.
The understanding of what God want from us take years to understand, and humans will gain different answers through their practice, it is not just one solid answer.

Scriptures (in abrahamic tradition) are given through prophets. So it is up to each follower to ha e faith in the prophets giving true messages and teachings from God. And in time there will be many prophets who will deliver teachings from God.

Stronger faith arise when a follower of a religion see their own transformation in to a better human being when they practice the teaching. Again, not every follower practice good, and by that they keep doing wrongdoings.
The spuritual heart opens when a follower doing the right things according to the teaching, so from faith in the teaching, it slowly goes to understanding, than wisdom from within the spiritual heart.

But still, everything you describe relies on existing belief. The presumption that there is a god that has sent messengers.

It can be true to the follower of the teaching, but look totally wrong from a different P.O.V.
So to say the teaching is false, just because one does not understand or see the truth from that teaching, actually does not mean the teaching is wrong.

To quote JP Moynahan...
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts."
If something is "true" it is true, regardless of a person's opinion on the issue. The facts don't care about our opinions.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But still, everything you describe relies on existing belief. The presumption that there is a god that has sent messengers.

To quote JP Moynahan...
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts."
If something is "true" it is true, regardless of a person's opinion on the issue. The facts don't care about our opinions.

I only present it as a faith belief

 

[KWED]

No, a belief is a product of scripture, usually but not always.

Where did the scripture come from, if not from someone with existing belief in what the scripture is saying?

 

[KWED]

If people make a statement of their belief other people are entitled to challenge that belief, and they can demand some evidence in support of the belief, but the person who states a belief is not obligated to provide evidence to support their belief. They can choose to provide evidence or not.

Well, obviously. However - if someone makes an extraordinary claim (like magic happening), and then refuse to back up that claim, people will rightly suspect that thy have nothing to back it up, rather than they have supporting evidence but want to keep it secret.

 

[KWED]

That is not what I meant.

Well, you need to think more carefully about what you say.

To say that God decides something subjectively would mean that what God decides is based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. What is good or bad is not God's opinion because God does not have opinions, only humans have opinions.

So what is good or bad simply "is". It is not god deciding. Therefore god is subject to an external concept that he must adhere to ie. "good and bad".
(I predict that will also be "not what you meant". )

You are talking about God as if God is a human being, but God is not a human being,

No. I am talking about him as if he is as described in scripture.

so God does not have subjective feelings or opinions.

So god does not feel "love" or "mercy" or "anger", etc.

God simply knows what is good or bad because God is all-knowing and all-wise.

So good and bad is something that exists independently of god. God is merely passing on that information to us. So morality is not from god, it just exists without him as a brute fact.

 

[rational experiences]

If you have an opinion it's just the use of words in an explanation.

If you have an experience then the example is physical change. Personal.

Science tries to claim if a human didn't exist then nor would your experience. By your owned physical presence.

Therefore it's all human. Not abstract such as in heavens mass itself.

An oxymoron.

As they use numbers calculus theoried without the experience ..as owner the body type. By status owner and owned expressed conditions.

So if you ask a theist where did your idea come from ....is it just your say or is what you've seen and experienced first also involved...without the thesis being you're total experience.

Humans who say experience is without a thesis first and without data first and were personally affected. A truth.

As the heavens mass is abstract to life. As we are free to move around in and even leave the heavens. Not fixed.

As you can't explain it by science you say it's not real. Then you try to use science to explain the personal experience.

So human behaviour said in our past petitioners of science temple caused life attacks which were ignored. Even murdered for challenging hierarchy. When the natural human is position first.

Then a huge disaster proved them right.

Twice. Natural experience versus the science community.

So you own a history of using coercion as a part of scientific exclusion of the experience. Claiming it not practical by your intelligence.

Yet life never owned science...machines. The actual use of data to inferred mass itself....a natural body human uses is to change mass.

Yet mass still stays as mass also.
Intelligence relative to the history science is humans worded coercion. Numbers machine then machine reaction.

So your claim is what you achieve by machines proves youre owner higher intelligence. It actually proves Lower intelligence how to destroy.

A very strange idea.

You say prove... yet you claim science by human plus machine proves.

 

[KWED]

The Baha'i Faith is not a religious cult, it is a world religion.

A very small and new one, with relatively few followers, who blindly parrot the meaningless platitudes of their supposedly charismatic leader. Sounds a lot like a cult to me.

The decision to exclude women was not my decision

But presumably you support it.

and as I pointed out was a misunderstanding as to what Baha'u'llah intended for the UHJ owing to a translation from a Persian and Arabic word, rijal, into English.

Interesting. So anything you quote from Bahaullah could be completely wrong?

the one Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha which promises that the wisdom of the exclusion of women will become manifest in the future,

Wait! So now you are saying that he did exclude women?
Wish you'd make your mind up Dave.

and since it is known that the meaning of the Tablet was that women should be excluded only temporarily from the Chicago House, the assumption that women will be permanently excluded from the current Universal House of Justice may be a faulty one. A temporary exclusion may be intended.

Ok. So you admit that Bahaullah did indeed exclude women, but you think it might not have been permanent.
So Bahaullah did prescribe sexist discrimination. The idea that he might reverse that decision doesn't make it not sexist discrimination. Also, as he is dead, surely you have to wait for the next messenger to reverse god's instruction?

The answer to this question, as with all other questions in the Baha'i community, will have to be worked out over time.

You hope. Also, you are assuming that it will resolve itself in the favour of gender equality. What if the next messenger is even more sexist that Bahaullah?

The elements of dialogue, struggle, persistence and anguish which are so evident in the history of the gradual participation of women on local Baha'i administrative bodies will, no doubt, all attend the working out of that answer in the future. These elements are all present today.

Hold on. Are you saying that committees of Bahai's can decide that Bahaullah was wrong if they disagree with what he said? Seems to make a mockery of the whole "perfect messenger of god" schtick.

Read more: https://bahai-library.com/Women on the Universal House of Justice
The reason is known. See above.

Did you even read that?
1. Nowhere does it provide a reason for excluding women.
2. It states that the exclusion in "neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition", which contradicts that it is not permanent and will change in the future.

If you want more detail you can read what is on the following website but bear in mind it is not an official Baha'i website and these is misinformation on other parts of the website. However, I think what it says about women on the UHJ is correct.
Baha'i Women Are On the Universal House of Justice

This is getting ridiculous. Both you and @TransmutingSoul condemned that website as false and fraudulent.
Now you are citing it as a reference.
You have truly jumped the shark!

I never said that,

You said that revelations about Bahaiism's sexism, homophobia and barbaric punishments was good publicity and you welcomed it.

Do you really think I or any other Baha'is care what your opinion of the Baha'i Faith is?

The ones on here seem to.

What you refer to as sexism, homophobia and barbaric punishment is just 'your opinion' of the Baha'i Faith and its laws, nothing more. The same applies to anyone else with a similar opinion.

Excluding women from top positions because they are women = Sexist discrimination
Calling homosexuality "Immoral" and "a shameful sexual aberration" = Homophobia
Burning people to death = Barbaric punishment.

Those aren't my opinions. Those are simple facts based on accepted meanings and definitions.

I find it rather hypocritical that a certain Christian would call the Baha'i Faith sexist when we all know that Paul thought of the role of women, even though modern-day Christians are trying to cover it up, since they know wit is unpopular.

Whataboutery - the last resort of a failed argument.

 

[KWED]

But the difference between me and you and Policy and KWED is that I am not jumping to conclusions.
I am saying I don't know why Baha'u'llah set that stipulation. Only He knew why.

But you are assuming, without any evidence, that there is a reason, and it is a good one.

 

[KWED]

A sexist system simply because women cannot serve on ONE Baha'i institution?

"A racist system, just because black people are excluded from the Senate? Come on! Black people are allowed to work in other, less important jobs."

I think you need a course in logic since that is the fallacy of hasty generalization as well as the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

No so. It is logical and reasonable based on the evidence. See above...

Your argument would be saying that a restaurant is not unhygienic because only one cupboard had rats in.

You are misunderstanding the hasty generalisation. That would be if we said that because Bahaullah was a sexist homophobe, therefore all Bahai's are sexist homophobes. That is not the accusation. It is simply that the system (the rules laid down by god through Bahaullah) are sexist and homophobic.

 

[KWED]

Yes indeed, but these questions require the asker to find the answer for their own self.

Otherwise, they are not really asking a question they want answered.

Regards Tony

I have found the answer. It is because of the sexism that was prevalent at the time Bahaullah was living. Same with the homophobia. He was just influenced by the customs and expectations of his peers and predecessors.
However, the burning people for arson is just plain disturbed.

 

[KWED]

They are your thoughts, not mine, nor I would offer does any Baha'i think that.

Regards Tony

You said that women being excluded from the UHJ was good because..." it allows them to serve in a capacity that will be of a great benefit to humanity. That is the education of the children and youth that build our future.".
That is clear, classic sexism. (Assuming that women can't raise children and have a career, or that the man can't raise the family while the woman has a career).
Either this is your own position, based on your own opinions - or you are simply "going by what Bahaullah wrote".
Which is it?
(This is where you dodge the question with another meaningless platitude)

 

[KWED]

What happened is recorded. You can read the stories

And what was recorded was Bahaullah bluffing and the Mullahs being too superstitious to call his bluff. No record of any miracle.
The only miracle is that you think the episode was in any way "miraculous".

 

[KWED]

The greatest Miracle is that of people changing their heart and seeing Allah in the Messenger.

What about the miracle of people changing their mind and realising that it is all just a load of superstitious nonsense? Do the two cancel each other out, leaving nothing?

 

[KWED]

I will offer this, as it is an event well recorded.

Over 10,000 witnesses to the Martyrdom of the Bab, one of the greatest miracles ever seen. A whole regiment of Christian Troops was thus spared from taking the life of the Bab and a Muslim regiment did the dirty deed, which also had miraculous reprocussions as that regiment then suffered the same fate they dished out to the Bab.

So, I am saying Link, that it is up to you to read the stories of those that met Baha’u’llah.

I am not offering any of those stories as proof of Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

What was "miraculous" about his execution?