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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Religion is the teaching of spiritual lifestyle and how to gain faith from within our own heart, and to become one with God ( in my view)
Religionincludes, even requires the worshiping of a god and claiming to understand what that god wants from us. If we can't understand god, there is no basis for religion.

It start with in a belief as a follower reading and study the scripture,
But that scripture had to come from somewhere. It didn't just appear by magic. It is , itself, a product of belief.

then it transform into faith that, "yes this teaching is leading me toward God"
But that claim presupposes the existence of god. The faith is already there.

So it is a personal journey, and it can look different from person to person. Belief is only a small portion of it all for a believer in a religiius scripture.
What else is there apart from belief?

It is proven from within the heart of the follower of that spiritual/religious teaching.
More question begging. How is belief from the heart of a believer possible before they have belief?

Does not have to be proven nor disproven toward a nonbeliever.
If people make a claim and insist it is true, other people are entitled to challenge that claim ad demand some evidence to support it.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
There has been many attempts, all have failed. There will most likely be more attempts, all will fail.

In the past, the branches were not hewn from the tree, they all sprouted from the main trunk, like water suckers and sprouts and there was not Covenant to cut them off.

A sprout or a sucker pruned from the tree, does appear to be alive for a short time, but it has no sustenance, it is no longer fed by the tree, it whithers and soon it dies.

Such is the result of all past attempts to split the Baha'i Faith, they were cut off via the Covenant.

Regards Tony
Guess what? All the other sects within Bahaiism also claim to be the only true version of Bahai.
Who'da thunk it?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Religionincludes, even requires the worshiping of a god and claiming to understand what that god wants from us. If we can't understand god, there is no basis for religion.

But that scripture had to come from somewhere. It didn't just appear by magic. It is , itself, a product of belief.

But that claim presupposes the existence of god. The faith is already there.

What else is there apart from belief?

More question begging. How is belief from the heart of a believer possible before they have belief?

If people make a claim and insist it is true, other people are entitled to challenge that claim ad demand some evidence to support it.
First of all, i do not speak for others than my self, i do not speak from any religion, only from my own experience through many years as a seeker. So my answers could sound different than what other people give you.

Some religions do "require" worship yes, but it comes down to each individual person in how much they worship. Some worship a lot, others less.
The understanding of what God want from us take years to understand, and humans will gain different answers through their practice, it is not just one solid answer.

Scriptures (in abrahamic tradition) are given through prophets. So it is up to each follower to ha e faith in the prophets giving true messages and teachings from God. And in time there will be many prophets who will deliver teachings from God.

Stronger faith arise when a follower of a religion see their own transformation in to a better human being when they practice the teaching. Again, not every follower practice good, and by that they keep doing wrongdoings.
The spuritual heart opens when a follower doing the right things according to the teaching, so from faith in the teaching, it slowly goes to understanding, than wisdom from within the spiritual heart.

It can be true to the follower of the teaching, but look totally wrong from a different P.O.V.
So to say the teaching is false, just because one does not understand or see the truth from that teaching, actually does not mean the teaching is wrong.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I’m not? I shall have to tell my friends – they were under the impression that I was the highest governing body for a world religion. ;) But seriously, Tb, your statement above is completely illogical You are strawmanning.
Here is what you said.
… having to do both, if it was even possible, would create a conflict.
Both, under any circumstances, means caring for a family and serving where ones particular gifts can be used. It is not necessarily true that this would create a conflict. So, no more strawmen, please.
It is not necessarily true that caring for a family and serving on the UHJ 'would not' create a conflict. It might create a conflict or it might not.. If you do not know what the duties of service on the UHJ are, you cannot know if it would create a conflict or not. This is called logical reasoning.

You really need to bone up on the logical fallacies. I did not create a straw man because I did not misrepresent your argument because it was easier to defeat than your real argument..

straw man
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
straw man definition - Google Search
And what you have just typed is the Fallacy fallacy
What is an example of fallacy fallacy?

An example of the fallacy-fallacy fallacy is the following: Alex: your argument contained a strawman, so you're wrong. Bob: it's wrong of you to assume that my argument is wrong just because it contains a fallacy, so that means that you're wrong, and my original argument was right.

Why Fallacious Arguments Can Have True Conclusions


What you committed in the post I responded to was the red herring fallacy.
I said that duties are duties, a job is a job and all jobs are different....
This has nothing to do with me living in the past. You bringing that up is the red herring fallacy because me living in the past (even if that was the case) is unrelated to what we were discussing. It is a red herring because it misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.

Do you see how this works? When I accuse you of committing a fallacy I explain how you committed it. I don't just throw out names of fallacies like you do. If you think I am wrong and you did not commit the fallacy you can explain why I am wrong, like I do when you accuse me of committing fallacies I did not commit..

Apparently you cannot defend yourself, so you throw out another fallacy in order to further confuse the issue and that is called deflection.

If you don't want to get called out on misapplying the fallacies I suggest that you either stop accusing me is committing fallacies or learn the fallacies.
It’s a combination of Bandwagon and Genetic. I look forward to your defence.
There will be no defense until you explain why it is Bandwagon and Genetic.
You cannot just throw out names of fallacies and not explain how I committed them.
That is like going into a court of law and accusing someone of a crime and not presenting any evidence that a crime has been committed. :rolleyes:
Yes, many would label this as sexism.
So what? Just because many people would label it as sexism that does not mean it IS sexism.
If you are claiming it is sexism becaue many or most people believe it is sexism, that is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
Yes, but don’t stop there; why do you think this was?
Because that is how people function within a society. People do not make big changes overnight, they make changes gradually, because people have to have time to adjust to new ideas.
So much for a faith for this age!
I said that in the future there might be women on the UHJ, but I did not say this would not happen in this age. It sounds like you just committed the fallacy of jumping to conclusions. ;)

It will happen in this age since the UHJ is a Baha'i institution and the Baha'i Faith is the religion for this age. That is called deductive reasoning.
You said there is a reason, but you don’t know what that reason is. This is obviously irrational. Sometimes it is best just to admit your error and move on, Tb.
It is not irrational to admit I don't know something. It's called humility.
It is not an error just because I don't know the reason. If you read the article on that website I provided you could figure out a possible reason why there are no women on the UHJ - yet.

https://bahai-library.com/Women on the Universal House of Justice
Another fallacy! Purely genetic this time. But you did make my point for me!
The same could be said of any organization which refuses to admit women to its governing body.
It is not MY fallacy, since I am not the one who determined that the Pope would be a man on the basis noted below. :rolleyes:

Why isn't there any female pope?

Because the institutional Church is a patriarchal institute that has traditionally denigrated women.
It took years of struggle before women could even become priests in the Anglican Church and they have only been admitted to the Episcopacy very recently.
The Roman Catholic Church is way behind and personally I can’t ever see a woman sitting on the Papal throne - at least not as long as the Catholic Church continues in its present recognisable form.
The same could be said for the Patriarchates of the Orthodox Churches.
As I said, you helped me reach the target. I didn’t need too much ammunition; you did it for me. :D
No, the bullets just came back and hit you in the face. You just cannot see it, but any unbiased person reading these posts can see it.
All you continue to do is dig your grave deeper and provide more free advertising for the Baha'i Faith! :D
LOL! Yes, truth disclosed is good for everyone. It’s how we learn discernment.
Too bad that nothing you are disclosing about the Baha'i Faith is true.
People who do their own research will know that.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If people make a claim and insist it is true, other people are entitled to challenge that claim ad demand some evidence to support it.
If people make a statement of their belief that is not the same as making a claim and insisting the claim is true.

If people make a statement of their belief other people are entitled to challenge that belief, and they can demand some evidence in support of the belief, but the person who states a belief is not obligated to provide evidence to support their belief. They can choose to provide evidence or not.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
But that scripture had to come from somewhere. It didn't just appear by magic. It is , itself, a product of belief.
Scriptures are definitely a product of something. But what I get from some Baha'is is the most all the Scriptures of the various religions are not completely accurate. But, when it comes to the Scriptures of Hinduism and Buddhism, I haven't heard any Baha'i claim any of those writings are true and having been "revealed" by a manifestation. And we know that even in Christianity the NT was written down years later by the followers of Jesus. So, what are they putting their faith in? Baha'is clear all that up and tell us what the truth was in all the other religions... which has little or maybe even nothing to do with what those religions actually believe.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So god decides something is good or bad because they are intrinsically that way, independent of god's opinion on the matter. Which means there is a power beyond god that god is constrained by (objective morality).
That is not what I meant. To say that God decides something subjectively would mean that what God decides is based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. What is good or bad is not God's opinion because God does not have opinions, only humans have opinions.

You are talking about God as if God is a human being, but God is not a human being, so God does not have subjective feelings or opinions. God simply knows what is good or bad because God is all-knowing and all-wise.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Do you mean like Christians are still 'waiting' for Jesus to return?

No.
I meant that KWED should wait for a literalist to respond to a question like
"What if the house doesn't have a fireplace?
with
"A Baha'i does not need to have a fireplace to hold a fireside".
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Any administrative job can be done just as well by women as men. To exclude women is sexist discrimination, by definition.
Do you think women should be excluded from the Senate or Congress, or parliament, of the boards of major companies?
If not, why exclude them from the UHJ?
If women can run a country or a major corporation, why can't they run a religious cult?
The Baha'i Faith is not a religious cult, it is a world religion.

The decision to exclude women was not my decision and as I pointed out was a misunderstanding as to what Baha'u'llah intended for the UHJ owing to a translation from a Persian and Arabic word, rijal, into English.

The exclusion of women from the Universal House of Justice today is observed by the Baha'i community primarily in obedience to these letters of the Guardian. Most Baha'is assume that this exclusion was intended to be a permanent one. However, since this instruction of the Guardian is tied so closely to the meaning of the one Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha which promises that the wisdom of the exclusion of women will become manifest in the future, and since it is known that the meaning of the Tablet was that women should be excluded only temporarily from the Chicago House, the assumption that women will be permanently excluded from the current Universal House of Justice may be a faulty one. A temporary exclusion may be intended.

The answer to this question, as with all other questions in the Baha'i community, will have to be worked out over time. The elements of dialogue, struggle, persistence and anguish which are so evident in the history of the gradual participation of women on local Baha'i administrative bodies will, no doubt, all attend the working out of that answer in the future. These elements are all present today.

Read more: https://bahai-library.com/Women on the Universal House of Justice
So women are denied from the highest office in Catholicism because of sexist discrimination, but women are denied from the highest office in Baha'is because some unknown good reason. :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
I did not know the reason before but now I know the reason, thanks to you and @samtonga43. :)

The reason is known. See above. If you want more detail you can read what is on the following website but bear in mind it is not an official Baha'i website and these is misinformation on other parts of the website. However, I think what it says about women on the UHJ is correct.

Baha'i Women Are On the Universal House of Justice
With all due respect, you are being somewhat optimistic there.
Do you think the revelations, reports, documentaries, etc about child sex abuse in the Catholic Church made the church more popular? Did the Pope and cardinals and ordinary Catholics think "Oh good, some free advertising"?
I never said that, but disinformation about the Baha'i Faith gives the Baha'is an opportunity to present correct information, which provides free advertising.
I used to think Bahaiism was some harmless kind of hippy-type, new age nonsense until I stared conversing with Bahai's on here. I had no idea that it promotes sexism, homophobia and barbaric punishment. My opinion of it has gone down considerably. I think there are others in a similar position. I have told people IRL and they were shocked and surprised. None of them were ever likely to convert, but like me thought you were harmless. Word gets around. So much for your free advertising!
Do you really think I or any other Baha'is care what your opinion of the Baha'i Faith is?
What you refer to as sexism, homophobia and barbaric punishment is just 'your opinion' of the Baha'i Faith and its laws, nothing more. The same applies to anyone else with a similar opinion.

I find it rather hypocritical that a certain Christian would call the Baha'i Faith sexist when we all know that Paul thought of the role of women, even though modern-day Christians are trying to cover it up, since they know wit is unpopular. :rolleyes:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not for the first time.
I said: What I said has NOTHING to do with logic. I just said I don't know because Catholicism is my religion, I did not say there is not a reason. I can find the reason in two seconds flat by doing a Google search. So could you, which is why I was not going to do your homework for you.

Quoting me out of context in order to put me down is dishonest.
People can see that if they are looking so people who do that only make themselves look bad.

There are some people on this thread who are only here to denigrate me and the Baha'i Faith. I won't mention any names because I have no need to put anyone down and anyone can see it for themselves.

People who put others down and denigrate their beliefs do that to raise themselves up and so they can believe they are right and others are wrong. I post to lots of Christians and atheists and very few resort to attacking the Baha'i Faith and personal criticisms. That behavior says more about them than it says about me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Guess what? All the other sects within Bahaiism also claim to be the only true version of Bahai.
Who'da thunk it?
The hundred-dollar difference is that these alleged sects are really Covenant-breakers, not Baha'is, as they cannot back up their beliefs with the Original Writings of Baha'u'llah.

This can be proven.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Say a man knew. Said this is all I can say now in and on behalf of humanities legal governing behalf. Now.

Jesus a legal testimony of men man saved the life of humans on earth. As science attack was stopped. Governing in civilisation rich man trade had changed. Stated hypocritical man.

Humans taught position.

As no man is God.

Ice of God saved heavens hot gas hot water saviour. Allowed oxygenation water microbes bio food chemistry to exist. Ice saved biologies life. Returns reborn end of each year.

Stability animal human life babies.

Stated. A humans teaching saved our life. A humans wisdom spirituality consciousness.

Yet he had to combat re emerging self destructive star fall science mind. Of his Muslim brothers. Exact historic.

Saw visions knew it would come again return...Russia hit. In life's future.

Said one more time my father's warnings in our future would plead with life's saving. About our inhumane brother's choices.

By my loving family who will hear.

I just happen to be one of those family members who began getting in water oxygenation a visit from a father's life message. As a spirit image voice statement.

As it's real. It was proven. I tested the spirit. I researched advice I hadn't learnt nor understood and it was exact. I'm not an egotist.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There has been many attempts, all have failed. There will most likely be more attempts, all will fail.

In the past, the branches were not hewn from the tree, they all sprouted from the main trunk, like water suckers and sprouts and there was not Covenant to cut them off.

A sprout or a sucker pruned from the tree, does appear to be alive for a short time, but it has no sustenance, it is no longer fed by the tree, it whithers and soon it dies.

Such is the result of all past attempts to split the Baha'i Faith, they were cut off via the Covenant.

Regards Tony
All they failed in doing is to get enough people to follow them. All that would be needed is for a little corruption at the top... like controlling who get elected to become a member of the UHJ. Then is the controlling members are too conservative or too liberal then a split between liberal more progressive Baha'is versus those conservative Baha'is that are against change. At the local levels this split is already there... And the ones that run the LSA and that have the power are the more conservative Baha'is. How long will liberal Baha'is put up with the status quo? An example of this was what happened with the Dialogue Magazine situation. Suggestions for improving the way things were being done didn't go through the "proper" channels. So, those in power cracked down on those Baha'is and essentially forced them out of the Baha'i Faith. Here's something about Juan Cole...

"From 1980 onward, several well-educated Baháʼís left the religion and subsequently criticized it.[27] For example, Juan Cole converted to the Baháʼí Faith in 1972, but later resigned in 1996 after conflicts with members of the administration who perceived him as extreme.[27] Cole went on to criticize the Baháʼí Faith in three articles written from 1998–2002,[28][29][30] describing a prominent Baháʼí as "inquisitor" and "bigot", and describing Baháʼí institutions as socially isolating, dictatorial, and controlling, with financial irregularities and sexual deviance.[27] Central to Cole's complaints is the Baháʼí review process, which requires Baháʼí authors to gain approval before publishing on the religion.[27] Soon after his resignation, Cole created an email list and website called H-Bahai, which became a repository of both primary source material and critical analysis on the religion.[27][31]
And here's something from Juan Cole...

Professor Juan Cole, February 23, 1999:

There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha’is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being “Baha’i” at all). Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha’is or when the voices speak of the Baha’i faith.

The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha’is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent. With non-Baha’is or with ex-Baha’is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I’ve been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of “claiming authority,” of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of ‘playing fast and loose with the facts,’ and even of being ‘delusional.’ I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha’is*, by prominent Baha’is. I have been backbitten by them. This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha’is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute….”
Has there ever been a major religion that didn't have problems with some of the people that got into leadership positions? And none of them are going to be perfect, so it won't take much to get off track.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
All the religious science governing organised men hierarchy prove all men any type in organisation control many types can become corrupt.

Is a natural humans warning.

I realised that man in spiritual status teaching still was not equating human equality as roleplay. Man woman roles.

Reasoned stated as family natural group was first. Natural mutual equal hierarchy. Was natural. No arguing once. It was naturally respectful.

As we didn't need to organise brain entrained human behaviour.

Gone. First origin of humans natural life. Consciousness sacrificed teaching. Reasoned.

So we have to work at being correct now. It never will be easy. Or just so.

As family equality not organisation is highest. Natural.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
All they failed in doing is to get enough people to follow them. All that would be needed is for a little corruption at the top... like controlling who get elected to become a member of the UHJ. Then is the controlling members are too conservative or too liberal then a split between liberal more progressive Baha'is versus those conservative Baha'is that are against change. At the local levels this split is already there... And the ones that run the LSA and that have the power are the more conservative Baha'is. How long will liberal Baha'is put up with the status quo? An example of this was what happened with the Dialogue Magazine situation. Suggestions for improving the way things were being done didn't go through the "proper" channels. So, those in power cracked down on those Baha'is and essentially forced them out of the Baha'i Faith. Here's something about Juan Cole...

"From 1980 onward, several well-educated Baháʼís left the religion and subsequently criticized it.[27] For example, Juan Cole converted to the Baháʼí Faith in 1972, but later resigned in 1996 after conflicts with members of the administration who perceived him as extreme.[27] Cole went on to criticize the Baháʼí Faith in three articles written from 1998–2002,[28][29][30] describing a prominent Baháʼí as "inquisitor" and "bigot", and describing Baháʼí institutions as socially isolating, dictatorial, and controlling, with financial irregularities and sexual deviance.[27] Central to Cole's complaints is the Baháʼí review process, which requires Baháʼí authors to gain approval before publishing on the religion.[27] Soon after his resignation, Cole created an email list and website called H-Bahai, which became a repository of both primary source material and critical analysis on the religion.[27][31]
And here's something from Juan Cole...

Professor Juan Cole, February 23, 1999:

There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha’is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being “Baha’i” at all). Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha’is or when the voices speak of the Baha’i faith.

The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha’is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent. With non-Baha’is or with ex-Baha’is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I’ve been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of “claiming authority,” of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of ‘playing fast and loose with the facts,’ and even of being ‘delusional.’ I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha’is*, by prominent Baha’is. I have been backbitten by them. This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha’is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute….”
Has there ever been a major religion that didn't have problems with some of the people that got into leadership positions? And none of them are going to be perfect, so it won't take much to get off track.

You are now seeing the wisdom on why some leave the faith. They still are not ready for a wider unity.

They are unable to submit to the wider unity. They feel their opinions trump the collective. It may even be they had a good case, but Abdul'baha has advised us to submit.

We are told to submit to the elected decision making process. Even if it is flawed, by submitting it allows, the balance to be righted.

Regards Tony
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father's man teaching as I hear was as a woman non judgemental.... as a human mother's love is for her human babies.

And we know we would take on anothers national human baby and love it as our own.

So our brother says I know my god man image voice is for all men on earth is advised correctly.

As the heavens body that causes bio life to die and be sacrificed then cools. Owns man's gods communal reaching naturally Forms man human memory my god or all god of man terms spiritually.

But it's never national.

It's where you make a personal mistake.

God owned no name as a man.

All men are every brother. And God meant all brothers too. Every type national DNA.

But not nationality. Spiritual only.

As father as first man owned the exact same man's human DNA first. Everywhere. As he was in fact from the living eternal spirit first.

As men Sacrificed their father's human life by nation fallout ground causes..no national teaching is true to the term all or God. By one national DNA description.

As your man life by DNA separation to be thought is conditional to the only culture is correct. Why you miss the real teachings.

All all nations lost their first father's presence as the holy father of man's life.

Therefore only the spiritual heavenly father non denominational is the correct human teacher. Was known and accepted before. The imaged shared world community of human man's life gone. To own correct terms.

As all life was equally sacrificed said the teaching.

Hence it cannot be taught by a man's name.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Natural humans living conscious conclusions said as both scientist theist and natural man.

It needs to be newly taught. My realisations today.

Yet only natural man not a scientist should own the compilation of terms.

As science of men is just a humans only choice.

It's not fact. As fact is just a number and it's not presence and not ever was presence a number.
 
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