Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[TransmutingSoul]

That's just swell, but you guys again ignore all of this. Is this true or false?

False.

Regards Tony

 

[samtonga43]

What if the house doesn't have a fireplace?

Wait for it!

 

[samtonga43]

National Spiritual Assembly members who are women, Percentage of, 1953-2007

Red Herring Fallacy

 

[samtonga43]

Sam The Triune God reveals Himself in Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, and infinitely more than a mere messenger. There is no comparison. IMO.

Tb That is your belief.
I agree that God revealed Himself in Christ who was much more than a messenger, but I do not believe that God is divided into three parts.

Sam Nor do I. I am a Trinitarian.

Tb I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense I believe in a Trinity; but I do not think that these three are part of God.

Sam Nor do I.

You appear to be confused, Tb. Try this:

 

[samtonga43]

Your job is not the SAME as the job of being on the UHJ as you are not the highest governing body for a world religion.

I’m not? I shall have to tell my friends – they were under the impression that I was the highest governing body for a world religion. But seriously, Tb, your statement above is completely illogical You are strawmanning.
Here is what you said.
… having to do both, if it was even possible, would create a conflict.
Both, under any circumstances, means caring for a family and serving where ones particular gifts can be used. It is not necessarily true that this would create a conflict. So, no more strawmen, please.

Duties are duties, a job is a job and all jobs are different....
This has nothing to do with living in the past. That is the red herring fallacy.

And what you have just typed is the Fallacy fallacy

No, why don't you tell me instead of playing games? Then I can defend my position.

It’s a combination of Bandwagon and Genetic. I look forward to your defence.

Meanwhile, there have been 114 Supreme Court justices in history and only four have been women. Do people label that as sexism, or maybe they understand there is a reason for it.

Yes, many would label this as sexism.

I think the reason is because women had to rise to positions of authority gradually over time.

Yes, but don’t stop there; why do you think this was?

FYI, in the future there might be women on the UHJ.

So much for a faith for this age!

What I said has NOTHING to do with logic. I just said I don't know because Catholicism is my religion, I did not say there is not a reason. I can find the reason in two seconds flat by doing a Google search. So could you, which is why I was not going to do your homework for you.

You said there is a reason, but you don’t know what that reason is. This is obviously irrational. Sometimes it is best just to admit your error and move on, Tb.

Why isn't there any female pope?
Because the institutional Church is a patriarchal institute that has traditionally denigrated women.
It took years of struggle before women could even become priests in the Anglican Church and they have only been admitted to the Episcopacy very recently.
The Roman Catholic Church is way behind and personally I can’t ever see a woman sitting on the Papal throne - at least not as long as the Catholic Church continues in its present recognisable form.
The same could be said for the Patriarchates of the Orthodox Churches.

Another fallacy! Purely genetic this time. But you did make my point for me!
The same could be said of any organization which refuses to admit women to its governing body.

You are just looking to throw pot shots at the Baha'i Faith and you ran out of ammunition.

As I said, you helped me reach the target. I didn’t need too much ammunition; you did it for me.

However, the more pot shots you throw, the more free advertising you provide for the Baha'i Faith.

LOL! Yes, truth disclosed is good for everyone. It’s how we learn discernment.

 

[KWED]

God does not decide anything subjectively.

So god decides something is good or bad because they are intrinsically that way, independent of god's opinion on the matter. Which means there is a power beyond god that god is constrained by (objective morality).

 

[Spirit of Light]

So god decides something is good or bad because they are intrinsically that way, independent of god's opinion on the matter. Which means there is a power beyond god that god is constrained by (objective morality).

I don't think humans can fully know, or fully understand how and what God thinks, or how to understand what God holds as opinion about most of existence.
Believers has to firstly base their understanding through the scriptures.
The discussion then becomes how to know the scriptures are true. That will of course mostly be based on belief. And can't be proven by scientific study.
Thats why it is called a belief in the first place

People who don't hold a faith based belief will not stop trying to disprove faith. And thats ok.

 

[KWED]

Your job is not the SAME as the job of being on the UHJ as you are not the highest governing body for a world religion.
Duties are duties, a job is a job and all jobs are different....

Any administrative job can be done just as well by women as men. To exclude women is sexist discrimination, by definition.
Do you think women should be excluded from the Senate or Congress, or parliament, of the boards of major companies?
If not, why exclude them from the UHJ?
If women can run a country or a major corporation, why can't they run a religious cult?

This has nothing to do with living in the past. That is the red herring fallacy.

It isn't a red herring because sexist discrimination was very much "a thing of the past", so "living in the past" is a very likely cause of sexist discrimination.

Meanwhile, there have been 114 Supreme Court justices in history and only four have been women. Do people label that as sexism,

Absolutely. There were no women on the Supreme Court before 1981 because of sexist discrimination!
However, because such discrimination is becoming a thing of the past, women are now allowed on the SCOTUS

I think the reason is because women had to rise to positions of authority gradually over time.

It took time because they had to battle against sexist discrimination.
Ye gods! How are you not getting this?

FYI, in the future there might be women on the UHJ.

Because black people today don't have to sit at the back of the bus, does that mean it wasn't an example of racist discrimination in the past?

Why isn't there any female pope?

Because the institutional Church is a patriarchal institute that has traditionally denigrated women.

It took years of struggle before women could even become priests in the Anglican Church and they have only been admitted to the Episcopacy very recently.

The Roman Catholic Church is way behind and personally I can’t ever see a woman sitting on the Papal throne - at least not as long as the Catholic Church continues in its present recognisable form.

The same could be said for the Patriarchates of the Orthodox Churches.

Why isn't there any female pope? - Quora

So women are denied from the highest office in Catholicism because of sexist discrimination, but women are denied from the highest office in Bahaiis because some unknown good reason.

You are just looking to throw pot shots at the Baha'i Faith and you ran out of ammunition.
However, the more pot shots you throw, the more free advertising you provide for the Baha'i Faith.

With all due respect, you are being somewhat optimistic there.
Do you think the revelations, reports, documentaries, etc about child sex abuse in the Catholic Church made the church more popular? Did the Pope and cardinals and ordinary Catholics think "Oh good, some free advertising"?

I used to think Bahaiism was some harmless kind of hippy-type, new age nonsense until I stared conversing with Bahai's on here. I had no idea that it promotes sexism, homophobia and barbaric punishment. My opinion of it has gone down considerably. I think there are others in a similar position. I have told people IRL and they were shocked and surprised. None of them were ever likely to convert, but like me thought you were harmless. Word gets around. So much for your free advertising!

 

[samtonga43]

I used to think Bahaiism was some harmless kind of hippy-type, new age nonsense until I stared conversing with Bahai's on here. I had no idea that it promotes sexism, homophobia and barbaric punishment. My opinion of it has gone down considerably. I think there are others in a similar position. I have told people IRL and they were shocked and surprised. None of them were ever likely to convert, but like me thought you were harmless. Word gets around. So much for your free advertising!

Exactly the same here!

 

[KWED]

What I said has NOTHING to do with logic.

Not for the first time.

 

[KWED]

I don't think humans can fully know, or fully understand how and what God thinks, or how to understand what God holds as opinion about most of existence.

But isn't that basically what "religion" is?

Believers has to firstly base their understanding through the scriptures.
The discussion then becomes how to know the scriptures are true. That will of course mostly be based on belief. And can't be proven by scientific study.
Thats why it is called a belief in the first place

So - a belief based on the belief that the belief is true.
Sounds pretty reasonable.

People who don't hold a faith based belief will not stop trying to disprove faith. And thats ok.

No one is trying to "disprove faith". People are asking if there is any evidential or rational basis for that faith.
There is no need to disprove something that has not been proven.

 

[KWED]

@Trailblazer answered this. Yes you have found out what Covenant Breaking results in and that is the art of deception. Unfortunately there were some very cleaver deceivers. Yet they are not able amd will never be able to split the Baha'i Faith.

The way domain names are sold. The Universal House of Justice is unable, at this time, to prevent that site unlawfully using its Lawful Name. So one or two persons can make something look quite big.

Regards Tony

So Bahaiism has already suffered a schism. So, which sect is the "True Bahaiism"? (Rhetorical question. Every sect always claims it is the true one, and all with equal conviction).

'Twas always thus.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But isn't that basically what "religion" is?

So - a belief based on the belief that the belief is true.
Sounds pretty reasonable.

No one is trying to "disprove faith". People are asking if there is any evidential or rational basis for that faith.
There is no need to disprove something that has not been proven.

Religion is the teaching of spiritual lifestyle and how to gain faith from within our own heart, and to become one with God ( in my view)

It start with in a belief as a follower reading and study the scripture, then it transform into faith that, "yes this teaching is leading me toward God"
So it is a personal journey, and it can look different from person to person. Belief is only a small portion of it all for a believer in a religiius scripture.

It is proven from within the heart of the follower of that spiritual/religious teaching.
Does not have to be proven nor disproven toward a nonbeliever.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wait for it!

Do you mean like Christians are still 'waiting' for Jesus to return?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think humans can fully know, or fully understand how and what God thinks, or how to understand what God holds as opinion about most of existence.
Believers has to firstly base their understanding through the scriptures.
The discussion then becomes how to know the scriptures are true. That will of course mostly be based on belief. And can't be proven by scientific study.
Thats why it is called a belief in the first place

People who don't hold a faith based belief will not stop trying to disprove faith. And thats ok.

Good to see you back. You were missed.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Good to see you back. You were missed.

Needed some timeout good to be back

 

[Trailblazer]

Red Herring Fallacy

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.[1] It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences towards a false conclusion. A red herring might be intentionally used, such as in mystery fiction or as part of rhetorical strategies (e.g. in politics), or it could be inadvertently used during argumentation. Red herring - Wikipedia

No, it is not the Red Herring Fallacy because the fact that there are many women on the National Spiritual Assemblies does not mislead or distract from a relevant or important issue. In fact, it is very much related to the relevant and important issue we are discussing.

To recap, you facetiously implied that Baha'is believe that a woman's place is in the home, since there are no women on the UHJ. The number of women on the NSAs demonstrates that the woman's place is not only in the home, and it is very much related to this discussion, so it is the very opposite of a Red Herring.

I suggest you learn your fallacies and how to apply them properly.

 

[Trailblazer]

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.[1] It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences towards a false conclusion. A red herring might be intentionally used, such as in mystery fiction or as part of rhetorical strategies (e.g. in politics), or it could be inadvertently used during argumentation. Red herring - Wikipedia

No, it is not the Red Herring Fallacy because the fact that there are many women on the National Spiritual Assemblies does not mislead or distract from a relevant or important issue. In fact, it is very much related to the relevant and important issue we are discussing.

To recap, you facetiously implied that Baha'is believe that a woman's place is in the home, since there are no women on the UHJ. The number of women on the NSAs demonstrates that the woman's place is not only in the home, and it is very much related to this discussion, so it is the very opposite of a Red Herring.

I suggest you learn your fallacies and how to apply them properly.

@Seeker of White Light
Since you have been away you probably haven't see the discussion about women on the UHJ on this thread.

Please see how I edited my post above, and it will become clearer.

 

[Spirit of Light]

@Seeker of White Light
Since you have been away you probably haven't see the discussion about women on the UHJ on this thread.

Please see how I edited my post above, and it will become clearer.

I will have a look

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So Bahaiism has already suffered a schism. So, which sect is the "True Bahaiism"? (Rhetorical question. Every sect always claims it is the true one, and all with equal conviction).

'Twas always thus.

There has been many attempts, all have failed. There will most likely be more attempts, all will fail.

In the past, the branches were not hewn from the tree, they all sprouted from the main trunk, like water suckers and sprouts and there was not Covenant to cut them off.

A sprout or a sucker pruned from the tree, does appear to be alive for a short time, but it has no sustenance, it is no longer fed by the tree, it whithers and soon it dies.

Such is the result of all past attempts to split the Baha'i Faith, they were cut off via the Covenant.

Regards Tony