Then what @TransmutingSoul is saying contradicts this. Did they perform continuous miracles in public or not? I'm going by what you guys are saying.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Then what @TransmutingSoul is saying contradicts this. Did they perform continuous miracles in public or not? I'm going by what you guys are saying.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah took miracles off the table for the following reason:
Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.
Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith
Last edited:
This is getting confusing. Why would it degrade his exalted position?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, they did not did not perform continuous miracles in public and I just explained the reason.
Okay thank you. Per my understanding of Quran, this proves they are not Prophets. Small testimony would prove contradicting cults today, so that is not enough.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If a miracle was necessary to believe that He was a Messenger of God, that would be degrading, because we should be able to recognize a Messenger without a miracle. I think that is the reason.
The Messengers of God have always appeared among men destitute of all earthly dominion. They appeared just like an ordinary man. If a Messenger manifested all that is latent within Him and were He to shine in all His glory, nobody would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. That defeats God’s Purpose, which is to test humans, not to make it easy to recognize the Messengers.
"That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose. Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?" Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Per my understanding of Baha'u'llah, it is not God's Purpose for Prophets to prove they are Prophets with miracles. We are enjoined to recognize them by their Person, their Revelation, and their Words.
No this is in the Baha'i Writings, would you like me to quote about miracles from the Baha'i Writings, there is many quotes?
Regards Tony
That miracle happened before Baha'u'llah asked us not to use miracles to prove his station.
It does not mean that Baha'u'llah did not perform miracles.
That is why I offered you need to pursue the stories if you want to find out. There are many recorded, but we will not use them to prove Baha'u'llah.
You will accept them, or you will not, but those stories will not convince anyone that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from Allah.
Regards Tony
Again one needs to read the personal accounts of those that met Baha'u'llah.
Each one of them will have a story to tell and there was on a lot of those occasions many people at those meetings.
Sorry Baha'u'llah, peace be with you.
Regards Tony
Last edited:
Then why does Quran emphasize so much on miracles?
My guess is, that it proves for all time that no miracle will be accepted by the later generations as proof of a Messanger.
The greatest miracle is indeed the greatest proof, that is the Quran.
How many will now see that as a miracle? A Baha'i embraces that miracle.
Regards Tony
An amazing part of the Baha'i Revelation was the 2 years Baha'u'llah spent in Seclusion in the mountains of Kurdistan.
One needs to read the stories of people that met him when he lived as and was seen as a dervish. None knew he was a Manifestation from God.
There is an amazing story of the response Baha'u'llah gave to a request for him to write a poem in the style of a well know poet. A feat no one else had ever achieved.
Regards Tony
This is repeated, but there is no proof of this. Mohammad (s) was a greater proof then the Quran, because he explained the Quran. Quran suffices as a proof but with Mohammad (s) and his family (a).
And one of the type of signs that manifest an aspect of Mohammad (s) was miracles he performed.
Now Quran says every people has a guide who such miracles and signs are performed by them and prove their position.
The only difference now, is that such miracles and signs are not in public, but the Mahdi is the beseeched and sought for such signs.
The Quran shows ALL the type of signs Quran talks about is shown to the certain. All types including physical miracles and inward light of Ahlulbayt (a) and Quranic type signs from words that are beyond humans.
You want to just emphasize on the "book" as signs from God, but the book itself emphasizes on all these type of signs.
So the Imam light is the highest type, connected to the doors to the sky reality type signs are the highest type of vision of certainty, but the Quran doesn't say this the only type of sign. There is words of Ahlulbayt (a) and Quran guidance, the book nature exalted above that of human capability, but the book itself emphasizes on physical miracles through out, not so we despair of being shown them, and not being told every people have a guide regarding such miracles and signs, to despair that the Guide of our time won't come to us and show us.
And showing miracles from the Guide can be a hard trial, true, many sorcerers seen his signs and accuse him of having power and knowledge he hides, and that he is hiding his supreme knowledge of sorcery from humanity. I've talked to people that have these ideas about Mohammad (S) the Prophet for example.
But all signs are a trial. The book we can make problems and interpret per our desires. Ahlulbayt (a) words we can show arrogance to. Physical miracles with arrogance, we might say it's sorcery and magic. Unseen signs, we are hallucinating and it's Jinn or Magic.
No type of sign is immune from disbelief. The day of judgment, however, 8 type of signs that the Quran talked about will be presented by his forces in a way no one will doubt and a higher level and most of the reason why people accept, is because, they are subdued. God doesn't let them talk except small whispers to each other. God taking full control and showing the truth and forcing it, and manifest all secrets, will happen, and people will know truth but too late.
But till then all type of signs shown can be denied. Yet Quran says all type of signs, not just one type (Quranic book words type) is shown to people who are certain.
The Guide in 13:7 is Imam Mahdi (a) in this age, and while hidden, there is still a guide to show such signs and miracles. Every people has such a guide.
Imam Mohammad Al-Baqir (a) teaches us "I ask you by your signs all together", all type of signs work differently, but together they produce the best result. The Quran didn't emphasize on miracles and that every people has a guide (13:7) in that respect, so we despair of being shown such signs.
There are many prayers including Du'a Nudba, that we ask God and Imam Mahdi (A) that we meet Imam Mahdi (A).
There is also the long Du'a arifni nafsika, which teaches to want to be guided by his hands (Imam Mahdi) and to do with all believers with knowledge that proof and signs are God's and prove God and the light of the proof is God's.
Quran emphasized on miracles, of course, we want them again to be in public view one day again, but believers won't be deprived of any of the type of signs if they beseech God for them.
All the signs (light unseen sky reality type, Quranic eloquence, words of ahlubayt (a) insights, and physical miracle, reasoning with wisdom, philosophical proofs, signs in creation we can reflect about, etc), are to be sought and asked by all of them for guidance.
There are many prayers including Du'a Nudba, that we ask God and Imam Mahdi (A) that we meet Imam Mahdi (A).
There is also the long Du'a arifni nafsika, which teaches to want to be guided by his hands (Imam Mahdi) and to do with all believers with knowledge that proof and signs are God's and prove God and the light of the proof is God's.
Quran emphasized on miracles, of course, we want them again to be in public view one day again, but believers won't be deprived of any of the type of signs if they beseech God for them.
All the signs (light unseen sky reality type, Quranic eloquence, words of ahlubayt (a) insights, and physical miracle, reasoning with wisdom, philosophical proofs, signs in creation we can reflect about, etc), are to be sought and asked by all of them for guidance.
The thing is Quran talks about even if not in public, there is such a guide for all people in all times, that can do such miracles (13:7).
Now if this Guide is going to come to public, and say he is this guide, he better perform such signs in the open and prove he is that Guide. Of course, they don't do miracles at whim, but God permits them miracles, and they perform them to degrees he shows, and increase in degree of proof.
The book of God is a proof. Not saying it's not, but part of that proof is how it is coupled with the guidance of the Imam of time and how it calls to him, and how the Imam of time calls to it, and how they go together.
Bahai faith doesn't have an Imam in this time. This contradicts Quran, Gospels, hadiths, and reason.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Maybe that was necessary in the days of Muhammad, but the way of God changes over time.
Does not make sense. God's way doesn't change with respect to proofs and guidance.
"You won't find a change in God's way" - Quran
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. I and many other women manage to work AND look after our family. My husband also works AND looks after our family. You seem to be living in the past,Tb. Move with the times...
Do you know which logical fallacy you have just committed?
And finally, here is an example of logic reasoning to die for...
Tb There is a reason why the Pope has always been a man
Me What is it?
Tb I don't know. Catholicism is not my religion.[/QUOTE]