Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[TransmutingSoul]

Another thread same old claims. And the same old "evidence".

There is really a truckload to explore. Mostly I see no point of posting any more. People are not willing to see it as a truckload, they want to refute it one by one.

I will offer there are some unexplainable incidents, that are even recorded by people that did not become Baha'i, about when they had a meeting with Abdul'baha.

There are people that have conversed with Abdul'baha and recording what he said in reply to them. The thing here was, they were English speakers and Abdul'baha was speaking Persian or Arabic.

It is not until a translator came in that they realised they no longer understood what was being said.

That would be mind blowing, and yet it still was not enough of a sign that there was a power far beyond our understanding involved in that exchange.

Regards Tony

 

[joelr]

I


RELATED: Baha’u’llah’s Book of Certitude: Illuminating Spiritual Wisdom

https://bahaiteachings.org/bahaullahs-book-of-certitude-illuminating-spiritual-wisdom/

This man illuminated very little. He repeatedly praises a deity, over and over presenting no philsophy, or anything beyond we should all get along.

His Character

He was capable of solving the difficult problems of all who came to Him. In whatever meeting, scientific assembly or theological discussion He was found, He became the authority of explanation upon intricate and abstruse questions presented.

In the book of scientific explanations he just repeated some science of the day (which turned out to be wrong), didn't understand several other concepts about evolution, molecules and gave zero new science.

His Writings
Read Plato, Aristotle, even Krishnas conversation with Prince Arjuna. Deep philosophical works written by people. The Bahai writings are just flowery praise and be nice over and over.




A New World Order
Yes, everyone believe that this person is a prophet and follow him. No need for evidence?

Prophecies fulfilled

No prophecies were fulfilled. An OT prophecy which clearly refered to a peaceful world and comparing it to a metaphorical garden was assumed to have come true because the Bahai foundation built a garden on My Carmel. An actual garden of flowers?

https://bahaiteachings.org/Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims

"Anyone with an open mind who investigates Baha’u’llah will likely find it difficult to deny that he was more than an ordinary man, and that his teachings are divine in origin. "

Uh, no, this isn't divine at all?
He clearly read the Quran and is going nowhere with this? This is just praise literature?
The Call of the Divine Beloved | Bahá’í Reference Library

So about 1/2 way down -

"
In this valley the wayfarer passeth beyond the stages of the “unity of existence” and the “unity of appearance” and reacheth a unity that is sanctified above both of these stations.7"

This is Sufi scripture. Which he also read. I'm not as familiar with Sufism but I bet a lot of it is here. Sikhism is probably plagerized quite a bit as well.

 

[Nimos]

It was never Baha'u'llah's job to solve the issue of who He was for us, it is all up to us to determine who He was by doing our own research and investigation. There will always be doubts about who He was until it becomes clear at some point in the future. Because of people's biases and desire to cling to their own religions, not everyone is going to recognize Baha'u'llah right now.

To me this is to do things backwards.

If a person came to you claiming to have superpowers and refuse to demonstrate it. Then it is not up to you to determine whether this person actually have set powers or not. You wouldn't start a massive investigation and research trying to figure out whether this person is telling the truth or not.

It is exactly the same with Baha'u'llah.

So what according to you and the others replying in this thread that are also Bahai's, what would prove or what conditions are needed in order for you to not think that Baha'u'llah were the messiah? Because so far, I haven't seen any conditions that would make you think that he is not.
Again because you are doing this backwards, you don't expect him to provide any demonstration of this claim. And your default position is that he is telling the truth.

But I don't know how you would recognize a messiah in the first place? Again, what or who are you validating this against?

I know that you have listed those things, like that we can know him by his character, life etc. Which doesn't work, unless you have a very specific definition of what a messiah is capable of, which from what I can see you don't have.

 

[samtonga43]

Then why did Jesus ask us to pray for the kingdom to come?

Jesus said to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was “in your midst” or “among you.”
In other words, Jesus brought the kingdom of God to earth.

 

[1213]

From my point of view there is an inner Kingdom of God and an outer Kingdom of God both. Why did He say "Thy Kingdom come"? There was already an inner Kingdom, but in the future an outer Kingdom will be established.

And I think that outer kingdom already exists on earth, it is formed of those who keep Jesus as their king.

 

[dybmh]

All the nations and places, not all Jews is my interpretation.

Why do you think it says both all nations and all places? Why the repetition?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you think it says both all nations and all places? Why the repetition?

I think it was repeated for emphasis. Places are not nations but they exist within nations.
A place is a particular position or point in space within a nation.

 

[dybmh]

I think it was repeated for emphasis. Places are not nations but they exist within nations.
A place is a particular position or point in space within a nation.

I agree that it's repeated for emphasis; what is it emphasizing?

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree that it's repeated for emphasis; what is it emphasizing?

That the Jews who will return to Israel will come from all over the world (all nations and all places).

 

[dybmh]

That the Jews who will return to Israel will come from all over the world (all nations and all places).

That could be communicated with either all nations or all places, why include both? Prophecy is precise, nothing is redundant without meaning.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is really a truckload to explore. Mostly I see no point of posting any more. People are not willing to see it as a truckload, they want to refute it one by one.

I will offer there are some unexplainable incidents, that are even recorded by people that did not become Baha'i, about when they had a meeting with Abdul'baha.

There are people that have conversed with Abdul'baha and recording what he said in reply to them. The thing here was, they were English speakers and Abdul'baha was speaking Persian or Arabic.

It is not until a translator came in that they realised they no longer understood what was being said.

That would be mind blowing, and yet it still was not enough of a sign that there was a power far beyond our understanding involved in that exchange.

Regards Tony

It's hard to take a religion that talks about peace and unity and the oneness of religion seriously when members of that religion tell people in the other religions how wrong they are... That those people in those other religions have misinterpreted their own Scriptures, and it is the Baha'is that know the true meaning of those Scriptures. It doesn't matter what Baha'u'llah said or what Abdul Baha said when some Baha'is come off as spiritual know-it-alls. How's that going to bring any peace and unity to between people in the different religions? You are right when you talk about the virtues... Things like kindness, respect and humility. But Baha'is have to lead by example.

 

[Riders]

I think Ba'hulla I know I am spelling that wrong, I think he's one of the messiahs but there are many Messiahs. Hare Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, etc.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's hard to take a religion that talks about peace and unity and the oneness of religion seriously when members of that religion tell people in the other religions how wrong they are... That those people in those other religions have misinterpreted their own Scriptures, and it is the Baha'is that know the true meaning of those Scriptures. It doesn't matter what Baha'u'llah said or what Abdul Baha said when some Baha'is come off as spiritual know-it-alls. How's that going to bring any peace and unity to between people in the different religions? You are right when you talk about the virtues... Things like kindness, respect and humility. But Baha'is have to lead by example.

The Message of Baha’u’llah offers all Humanity the thoughts that the Baha'is share. Thus a Baha'i sees that it is God that has offered all that, to all humanity.

Why blame the Baha'i as spiritual know it all's?

Is it because we share what has been offered?

It is there for all to read, I need not share it, like the Tablet to the Pope.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

An extract.

"....Say: O peoples of the earth! Destroy the abodes of negligence with the hands of power and assurance, and raise up the mansions of true knowledge within your hearts, that the All-Merciful may shed the radiance of His light upon them. Better is this for you than all whereon the sun shineth, and unto this beareth witness He Who holdeth within His grasp the ultimate decree. The Breeze of God hath been wafted over the world at the advent of the Desired One in His great glory, whereupon every stone and clod of earth hath cried out: “The Promised One is come! The Kingdom is God’s, the Mighty, the Gracious, the Forgiving.”

Beware lest human learning debar thee from Him Who is the Supreme Object of all knowledge, or lest the world deter thee from the One Who created it and set it upon its course. Arise in the name of thy Lord, the God of Mercy, amidst the peoples of the earth, and seize thou the Cup of Life with the hands of confidence. First drink thou therefrom, and proffer it then to such as turn towards it amongst the peoples of all faiths. Thus hath the Moon of Utterance risen above the horizon of wisdom and understanding..."

That is not me or any Baha'is saying that CG, that is a Message to you and all of us from God.

IMHO

So in reality you are shooting the Messenger, who has come with no other intent but to deliver a Message that enables us new frames of references, thus I see your beef is with God and not Baha'is.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I think Ba'hulla I know I am spelling that wrong, I think he's one of the messiahs but there are many Messiahs. Hare Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, etc.

It would be different if the claim was that he was one of many Holy men that have come in these last days. But the claim is he "Is" the one, the promised one. For me, he doesn't fit "the promised one" of Hinduism or Buddhism. Not even Christianity or Judaism. And outside of Persian/Iranian Muslims, I wonder how many of the other sects of Islam have accepted him?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Message of Baha’u’llah offers all Humanity the thoughts that the Baha'is share. Thus a Baha'i sees that it is God that has offered all that, to all humanity.

Why blame the Baha'i as spiritual know it all's?

Is it because we share what has been offered?

It is there for all to read, I need not share it, like the Tablet to the Pope.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

An extract.

"....Say: O peoples of the earth! Destroy the abodes of negligence with the hands of power and assurance, and raise up the mansions of true knowledge within your hearts, that the All-Merciful may shed the radiance of His light upon them. Better is this for you than all whereon the sun shineth, and unto this beareth witness He Who holdeth within His grasp the ultimate decree. The Breeze of God hath been wafted over the world at the advent of the Desired One in His great glory, whereupon every stone and clod of earth hath cried out: “The Promised One is come! The Kingdom is God’s, the Mighty, the Gracious, the Forgiving.”

Beware lest human learning debar thee from Him Who is the Supreme Object of all knowledge, or lest the world deter thee from the One Who created it and set it upon its course. Arise in the name of thy Lord, the God of Mercy, amidst the peoples of the earth, and seize thou the Cup of Life with the hands of confidence. First drink thou therefrom, and proffer it then to such as turn towards it amongst the peoples of all faiths. Thus hath the Moon of Utterance risen above the horizon of wisdom and understanding..."

That is not me or any Baha'is saying that CG, that is a Message to you and all of us from God.

IMHO

So in reality you are shooting the Messenger, who has come with no other intent but to deliver a Message that enables us new frames of references, thus I see your beef is with God and not Baha'is.

Regards Tony

It is the attitude that it is being offered. Baha'is can't say they believe that all the major religions are true and from God... and that they believe in the "oneness" of all religions, then turn around and tell people how wrong they are about what they believe. It'd be like me telling you how much I believe in God and Baha'u'llah, but then tell you that your interpretation of Baha'u'llah's writings and belief in the authority of the UHJ is wrong.

 

[Truthseeker]

Again because you are doing this backwards, you don't expect him to provide any demonstration of this claim. And your default position is that he is telling the truth.

For over 50 years I have periodically had doubts because of my skepticism, then I realized that he overwhelming evidence I encountered overwhelmed the seeming inconsistencies I saw.

I know that you have listed those things, like that we can know him by his character, life etc. Which doesn't work, unless you have a very specific definition of what a messiah is capable of, which from what I can see you don't have.

A definition? What are you talking about? A Messenger of God is beyond definition, just like God is beyond definition. I see that that you can only cognate, nothing beyond that.

 

[Truthseeker]

I think Ba'hulla I know I am spelling that wrong, I think he's one of the messiahs but there are many Messiahs. Hare Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, etc.

Quite true. He's the latest and we believe the social teachings have to change over time because of the changing conditions. His spiritual message is compatible with past Revelations, but His social teachings are different.

 

[Ella S.]

That is besides the point. Baha'u'llah didn't come to reveal science to us, we can do that by ourselves.

The only good evidence that one could provide that he was actually a prophet of God is demonstrating that he had knowledge only the creator of the universe would know.

Until a prophet of God gives us a working Theory of Everything that's at least several centuries ahead of our current scientific models, then there's no good evidence that they are a prophet of God.

In fact, that is the minimum criteria for merely suspecting that they are a prophet of God, by my mileage, because there could be a number of other ways they obtained such a ToE without recourse to God. So it's only a starting place.

Since Baha'u'llah can't even do that, then he clearly wasn't a prophet of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

That could be communicated with either all nations or all places, why include both?

I don't know. I did not write the prophecy.

Prophecy is precise, nothing is redundant without meaning.

It is our job to determine the meaning, but not everyone will come up with the same meaning.
Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible can have many meanings which indicates that more than one meaning can be correct.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175
.

 

[rational experiences]

I'm a newly born human. So are all of you.

Today humans use human idolisation the same as humans did before after science changed consciousness.

So newly born humans living tell the spiritual story in self presence.

A man had a human experience. It reminded his mind about the human qualities. We learnt in family governing so reiterated the human agreed legality of it. Jesus legal standing.

Human life sacrificed by temple sciences.

Which was no science.

In those times Muslim owning pyramids were trying to rebuild temple sciences that had been forbidden.

Jeru the place of turning Salem peace in transmitters. Science practice.

So he reiterated his Jesus human legal teachings. What it was about.

Man's spiritual humanity father was a kind caring fluent speaker of loving words as a human father. Which he reiterated he had proven by not just his cultural speech but by community men's recorded memories. Languages.

To prove their way of conscious thinking had been removed was his purpose to challenge.