Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[TransmutingSoul]

But you know how some Christians have put Jesus, and by some verses in the NT I can see why, to the top... all the way up to be equal to God. Some people would call that being blasphemous. But then turn it around, and for those trinitarian Christians, putting anyone to the level of Jesus, would be blasphemous.

Baha'u'llah has told us that it is not wrong to see the Messenger as God, they are all we will and can know of God. We are told not to make it the cause of argument.

The issue is, in going to that extremity, and not seeing the twofold station of a Messenger, we run the risk of excluding all the Messengers and making a God of our own imagination. This extremity becomes the cause of any potential argument, because it has no compromise.

I see Baha'u'llah has shown us how the Messengers are the "Self of God", yet in this matrix, are also a man like us.

What we are speaking of here is Attributes of God, the Rays of the Sun, remember, the Bible gives all these teachings, it is just how we choose to see them, what frame of references we are using.

John 1:18 is this teaching, yet if you go look at translations, you will note how mens own thoughts have influenced its meaning.

A good reflections is this translation.

KJV "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

And other translations also offer what Baha'u'llah has told us, like this one;

NLT "No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us."

And to me this translation breaks it down exactly as Baha'u'llah offers.

Berean Literal Bible
"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known"

So lets break that down

"No one has ever yet seen God."

God is the Unknowable Most Great Spirit, we have seen the Attributes of God manifested in the 'Self of God", the Messengers, but never seen God. (Notice it says yet seen, so again this is also a hidden prophecy of the Father)

"The only begotten God,"

These are the Messengers

"the One being in the bosom of the Father"

This is showing the Oneness of all the Messengers and this is Jesus as the Christ already showing us that Christ will fulfill the promise of His return in the station of the 'Father'

"He has made Him known"

That Self of God' makes God known to humanity, they are all we can know of God. They are the Attributes of God and make them know unto us, they are the source of our lives.

All God given faiths have a God given Messeger, who are the 'Self of God'. We have no excuse not to have a Unity in our Diversity of Faith, all colours of the rainbow are from the same one source of white light.

So CG, where is the Argument? Who is making the arguments? I see that the Glory of God is also Christ?

So who is excluding other Faiths in making Christ God? Not a Baha'i, we embrace Jesus as the Christ (Annointed) "Self of God", and the Bible as a sure spiritual guide. Where then is the source of these arguments?

This is how we see all the Messengers, all IMHO

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, yeah I can see why a Baha'i would say, "Oh dear". But you know how some Christians have put Jesus, and by some verses in the NT I can see why, to the top... all the way up to be equal to God. Some people would call that being blasphemous. But then turn it around, and for those trinitarian Christians, putting anyone to the level of Jesus, would be blasphemous. And that's what Baha'is are doing. But not just with Baha'u'llah, but with his forerunner, his "Elijah", he, the Bab, is also made a manifestation. But then Muhammad and Moses and all other manifestations are brought to an equal level with Jesus.

The problem I see is that Baha'is could be and should be the peacemakers, the unifiers between the different religions, but by focusing on the unprovable, controversial claims of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith, Baha'is are not the cause of unity, but of focusing on the biggest differences there are between the different religions... the claim that some new guy is their new prophet... that he is the fulfillment of their religion. And, of course, that they, those people in the other religions are wrong about how they misinterpreted most everything that their prophet had said.

The threads make for good arguing. Some go on for months, with hundreds of posts, but do they get anywhere? But you know that... It has obviously been frustrating for you, but these types of threads started by anybody in any religion are all destined to get people on both sides frustrated. I think the Baha'is way of doing would be on along the lines of finding the common ground between the people in the other religions and with the Atheists... instead of, which it seems to me, promoting Baha'u'llah as the only answer for today's problems. To you, he is. But it's only going to draw out those people that disagree with you. Which does make interesting and long but tedious threads.

Christians say the same thing that the Jews have misunderstood their Book and that Jesus is the Messiah. Then Muslims say that Christians have got it wrong and that ‘Ahmad’ is mentioned in the Bible according to the Quran.

Baha’is are saying They are ALL true and from God. So if Jews accepted Christ and the Gospels, and Christians accepted Muhammad and the Quran and Muslims accepted the Bab and Baha’u’llah- you are saying that would start World War 3?

Let’s be reasonable here. If we all accepted each other’s religion as Baha’u’llah teaches, we would all become brothers and sisters.

The current interpretations of the various Holy Books is what has caused so much hatred and wars between religions and split them into thousands of factions.

Baha’u’llah brings an interpretation which says ALL the religions are true and ALL the Prophets are from God, promoting acceptance of all faiths without superiority or exclusiveness of one faith over another.

There is no more peaceful solution than to put aside our prejudices and welcome all religions in a spirit of oneness and equality. Why shouldn’t Jews accept Christ or Christians Muhammad?

 

[samtonga43]

Christians say the same thing that the Jews have misunderstood their Book and that Jesus is the Messiah. Then Muslims say that Christians have got it wrong and that ‘Ahmad’ is mentioned in the Bible according to the Quran.

Baha’is are saying They are ALL true and from God. So if Jews accepted Christ and the Gospels, and Christians accepted Muhammad and the Quran and Muslims accepted the Bab and Baha’u’llah- you are saying that would start World War 3?

Let’s be reasonable here. If we all accepted each other’s religion as Baha’u’llah teaches, we would all become brothers and sisters.

The current interpretations of the various Holy Books is what has caused so much hatred and wars between religions and split them into thousands of factions.

Baha’u’llah brings an interpretation which says ALL the religions are true and ALL the Prophets are from God, promoting acceptance of all faiths without superiority or exclusiveness of one faith over another.

There is no more peaceful solution than to put aside our prejudices and welcome all religions in a spirit of oneness and equality. Why shouldn’t Jews accept Christ or Christians Muhammad?

I once saw a Bahai say that they wanted to burn the Christian scriptures. Not exactly a peaceful solution..

 

[samtonga43]

His beef is with Baha'is because we have a different interpretation of the Bible, but that is not our own personal interpretation, it is derived from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, so if there is any beef to be had, the beef should be with them.

Correct. My interpretation is based on first-hand experience.
Your interpretation is based on second-hand experience.

 

[samtonga43]

No Baha'i ever claimed that it was, but those details also were not accurately represented in the gospels, as every Bible scholar knows.

Every Bible scholar knows that those details were not accurately represented in the gospels?

LOL! Are you sure about this, Tb?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I once saw a Bahai say that they wanted to burn the Christian scriptures. Not exactly a peaceful solution..

This is a partial screenshot of my kindle library. Baha’u’llah teaches us to revere the Holy Bible.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I once saw a Bahai say that they wanted to burn the Christian scriptures. Not exactly a peaceful solution..

I know Millions of Baha'i that would and do give their lives peacefully for Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Every Bible scholar knows that those details were not accurately represented in the gospels?

LOL! Are you sure about this, Tb?

As sure as all those Bible scholars are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Correct. My interpretation is based on first-hand experience.
Your interpretation is based on second-hand experience.

It is rather the other way around.
My interpretation is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote and He had first hand experience.

 

[Ella S.]

You are only looking at it from an intellectual point of view, as in intellectual knowledge.

Yes, I am, because "knowledge" is a facet of epistemology, and I adhere to logical epistemology.

Debate is about rational discourse. To take an anti-intellectual stance in a debate is tantamount to forfeiture, in my opinion.

The real criterion to decide if someone who claims to be a Prophet of God is what is his character like and are what he did noble works as best as you can know it, does he inspire people around him to better character and good works, does his writings over a longer period of time inspire people to have better character and good works, in Baha'u'llah's case since he claimed to be the fulfilment of previous religions whether what he taught is compatible with the spiritual teachings of previous Prophets, and finally do the writings of Baha'u'llah inspire something inside you.

No, someone's character does not prove that they can speak to God. I am not quite sure how you would reach this conclusion.

The only evidence that can demonstrate that someone has spoken to God is evidence that they have spoken to God.

edit: I forgot the criterion of whether he profited from making his claims, or did he suffer as a result and yet steadfastly stick to his claims. This all goes to his sincerity as well the criterion of whether his character was good. Were his writings cogent and sane, or show signs of delusion or insanity? That ticks the box of him being sincere but not making a claim out of delusion or insanity.

Again, I am not sure how character is relevant to this particular truth claim.

Yes, advanced scientific knowledge revealed by him would convince you, but you would not value what you have gained if it came so easily. We are asked to earn faith in Baha'u'llah.

The value of something isn't relevant to whether it can be demonstrated to be true or not.

I say all this believing that this will be an insufficient starting point for you. You would have to investigate all of the above, but I don't think you will. I've been at this too long to believe otherwise for those of a scientific publicly objective bent. It's not a waste of time for me though because it increases my own spiritual health if I write this without any ill-will towards you and in writing this my own knowledge increases a little.

Insufficient starting point for me to... what? Become a Bahai?

I assure you, if I was ever to become a Bahai, then proving that Baha'u'llah was a prophet of God would be a prerequisite.

 

[samtonga43]

As sure as all those Bible scholars are.

Tb, to say that every Bible scholar knows that those details were not accurately represented in the gospels is to commit the fallacy of gross exaggeration. I am surprised you can't see this.

 

[samtonga43]

It is rather the other way around.
My interpretation is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote and He had first hand experience.

No. You don't know that MrB had first hand experience of anything. And, in any case, if your experience is based on someone else's experience, then your experience is not first hand.

 

[samtonga43]

I know Millions of Baha'i that would and do give their lives peacefully for Christ. Regards Tony

And I know at least one Baha'i who would like to burn the Christian Scriptures.

(You don't really know millions of Baha'i, do you? )

 

[samtonga43]

This is a partial screenshot of my kindle library. Baha’u’llah teaches us to revere the Holy Bible.View attachment 63500

Pictures of books are evidence of nothing, loverofhumanity

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And I know at least one Baha'i who would like to burn the Christian Scriptures.

(You don't really know millions of Baha'i, do you? )

This hidden word reflects how all the Baha'is are connected.

"O CHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory." Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was thinking if this passage.

“The day is approaching when God will have, by an act of His Will, raised up a race of men the nature of which is inscrutable to all save God, the All-Powerful, the Self-Subsisting.” “He will, erelong, out of the Bosom of Power, draw forth the Hands of Ascendancy and Might––Hands who will arise to win victory for this Youth, and who will purge mankind from the defilement of the outcast and the ungodly. These Hands will gird up their loins to champion the Faith of God, and will, in My name, the Self-Subsistent, the Mighty, subdue the peoples and kindreds of the earth. They will enter the cities, and will inspire with fear the hearts of all their inhabitants. Such are the evidences of the might of God; how fearful, how vehement is His might!” (Bahá’u’lláh cited in The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 85)

Maybe people are fearful of undertaking such an evaluation of such a far reaching claim, as they ask themselves, what if it was true?

IMHO, that is most likely the case.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

No there are no such prophecies. They use numerology, gematra and all kinds of crank to find random dates.

Thanks, Yes, I argue with them over the "1260" years, because it is used six times about six different things that started and stopped at different times... But that doesn't matter to Baha'is, because to work, they all have to start with the Hejira and end in 1844. But again, that wasn't "The Promised One" that was the Bab, the forerunner to the Promised One.

 

[Truthseeker]

Insufficient starting point for me to... what? Become a Bahai?

To start to investigate the Baha'i Faith. I think we're done with this subject.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb, to say that every Bible scholar knows that those details were not accurately represented in the gospels is to commit the fallacy of gross exaggeration. I am surprised you can't see this.

Tb said: Every Bible scholar knows that those details were not accurately represented in the gospels?

sam43 said: LOL! Are you sure about this, Tb?

Tb said "As sure as all those Bible scholars are."

No, not every Bible scholar, but most Bible scholars.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. You don't know that MrB had first hand experience of anything. And, in any case, if your experience is based on someone else's experience, then your experience is not first hand.

The same applies to you. Your experience is not first hand.
You might believe you have first hand experience with God, but belief is not proof of any kind.