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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Two problems:
1. You have quoted Shoghi Effendi out of context.
In what way?

2. You think you know what he meant by that statement, but it can mean more than one thing.
I know what the words used imply, yes.
Even so, all you are saying there is that I might be correct.

Now onto the important bit...

If a baby dies in agony from a congenital condition that is because the baby inherited that congenital condition. The only way you can trace that back to God is if you say that God is responsible for fate so it was that baby's fate to inherit that congenital condition.
I was not taking about inherited conditions, just congenital (meaning "from birth), so...

If a baby dies in agony from a congenital condition...The only way you can trace that back to God is if you say that God is responsible for ...that congenital condition.

there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as death, sickness; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them.
So Abdulbaha is confirming that the congenital condition causing the baby to die in agony is god's responsibility.

Believers only want to look at the Good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the Bad things for which God is responsible.
Just as you are doing here. You want to absolve god of his responsibility for killing babies.

Instead, they try to say that all the Bad things are really Good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything Bad. These religious apologetics are patently illogical.

God is not off the hook as it would be illogical to blame man for things that are beyond his control. It's too bad most believers cannot think logically and realize this, since they have to maintain their God is Loving stance.
Wait. So you are now accepting that god is responsible for the baby's agonising death?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
REALLY? I haven't read this from the Bahais here. Is this true? :confused:
Yep. All true and from his writings.
The misogyny and homophobia one can understand as they are common threads through the Abrahamic religions - but the burning people alive for arson is taking the barbarism to a new level.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Baha'u'llah did not claim that "All previous religions were corrupted versions of the one true religion."
He claimed that there is only one true religion of God that is revealed in various stages over time.
Same thing.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It is true that only men can serve on the UHJ.
And how do you rationalise that?

It is not true that Baha'u'llah is guilty of misogyny/sexist discrimination.
Erm, you just admitted that he excluded women from serving on the UHJ.

And you forgot to mention homophobia.
Do you deny that Bahaiism forbids homosexual relations, Bahaullah condemned it, and Shoghi Effendi described homosexuality as "shameful sexual aberration"?

You also forgot to address the issue of burning people to death.

So out of all my points, you addressed only one, and your argument quickly unravelled.

it is a known fact that all the calumny is what causes a religion to be recognized
Is it? "Known" by whom? Let me guess... Bahaullah said it, so it must be true :tearsofjoy:

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized.
Paris Talks, pp. 105-106
There he is!
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, that logic does not follow. Even of He was a false prophet I would not be rejecting God.
I believe in God and Jesus so I am covered. :) Who is covering your bases?
What if Hinduism is the one true religion? How are you "covering that base"?

Also, how does god feel about your Pascal's wager approach to belief?

I am not worried because I know that God knows I am sincere.
But you just said that you were "covering your bases"! That is not "sincerity".
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You took my reply 100% incorrectly.
Well, you should have expressed yourself more clearly. You said...
"Those that do not show in their lives virtues, morals, justice and compassion are of a godless mindset."
Implying that godlessness leads to a lack of such values.

That is all that needs to be said.
Well, you could respond to my other points. But I completely understand if you find it difficult.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes, the history of religion does indicate that not all see the wisdom God offers.

Regards Tony
So you see sexist discrimination, homophobia and brutal barbarism as "wisdom"?
You will need to explain how you came to that conclusion.

Or are you like @Trailblazer and simply saying that "We have to go by what was written by Baha'u'llah"?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes those changes were because of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Seriously? Are you high?
You think the social changes in Northern Europe in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, caused by the effects of the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution were "because of the Bab and Baha'u'llah"?
Dude, you have completely lost it! :tearsofjoy:
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Anthropogenic climate change.

I don’t think climate change was an issue in the 19th century but Baha’u’llah did say things about nature that are relevant to it today.

Take from this world only to the measure of your needs, and forego that which exceedeth them. Observe equity in all your judgements, and transgress not the bounds of justice, nor be of them that stray from its path. (Baha’u’llah)

This video below is a prophecy by Baha’u’llah’s Son Abdul-Baha regarding Greenland. Below is a video confirming it.



 
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samtonga43

Well-Known Member
It is true that only men can serve on the UHJ.
Only men? In a faith purportedly for this age?
It is not true that Baha'u'llah is guilty of misogyny/sexist discrimination.
That is called the fallacy of jumping to conclusions, but when one is running low on gas, they tend to go looking for a gas station.
One does not need to ‘jump’ to reach the conclusion that this is sexist discrimination / misogyny.
Have fun, because it is a known fact that all the calumny is what causes a religion to be recognized, so it has the opposite of the intended effect.
Recognized as being misogynist? Well, this is true.
However, about this calumny of which you speak; no one is making false and defamatory statements. By being sexist, the Baha’i faith damages its own reputation.
I find it so ironic that before I came to this forum I thought that your Faith system was
all-encompassing, gentle, rational, loving. Now, hearing from Bahia’s themselves, I know better.

You speak of the Light of God:
The Light of God is Jesus. Then, now, and forever. IMO
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I don’t think climate change was an issue in the 19th century but Baha’u’llah did say things about nature that are relevant to it today.

Take from this world only to the measure of your needs, and forego that which exceedeth them. Observe equity in all your judgements, and transgress not the bounds of justice, nor be of them that stray from its path. (Baha’u’llah)
Kinda subjective. Who decides if we need to drive cars, heat homes, eat meat, etc?

This video below is a prophecy by Baha’u’llah’s Son Abdul-Baha regarding Greenland. Below is a video confirming it.
As for the "prophesy", has certainly not been fulfilled. The population of Greenland is over 95% Christian, yet it is still mostly an inhospitable, frozen wasteland. If all the ice on Greenland did melt (which will not happen under even the worst projections), much of humanity would be wiped out by the consequences of the 70m rise in sea level. Greenland would not be a "temperate rose garden". It would still be below freezing for a good part of the year, and would barely reach achieve a temperate climate at the peak of summer.
The prophesy is complete fantasy, as is the claim that it has been, or ever will be fulfilled. It is just another case of extreme confirmation bias clouding people's judgement.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, to Baha'is the "Three Woes" are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. But "definitely" right? To me, the context doesn't fit any of them.
Rev. 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them...

6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”
If things weren't bad enough, now the last three trumpet blasts were to be sounded.

Rev. 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.
That's the first "Woe". What does that have to do with Muhammad? It's sure seems to me a continuation of judgements like the previous trumpet blasts. Then comes the next "Woe". Does this sound like it is describing the Bab?

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
This second "Woe" goes into chapter 11 before it ends. During that time the Two Witnesses appear, which Baha'is say are Muhammad and Ali. But we just got finished with Muhammad in the first "Woe" and now here he is again in the middle of the second "Woe"?

11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth”...

14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
Believe it if you want, but the Baha'i interpretation of all this is too contrived and too vague to be meaningful to anybody but a Baha'i.

Yes you get to choose how you see it CG. You have the same material to look at that I have.
Did you look at it? Do you see and know how this exactly describes the things that happened during the time of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Can you reference the place where these verses are interpreted by Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha, or Shoghi Effendi? Til then, I'll stay with the belief that the Baha'i interpretation of these verses is contrived and forced to make it fit.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
All have CG, to those that chose the path. We have another chance, right now, we get a lifetime to choose.

Regards Tony
Okay, tell me how it happened after Jesus came? Some Christians, I'm sure, were great, holy people, but how many? Then there were others that weren't so great. They fit into the "savagery" side of thing rather than some "pinnacle" of spirituality. And I'd guess that most people fall into the category of being "nominal" believers... even Baha'is.

They aren't doing much. Go to a few feasts. Say a few prayers. Give some money. How many Baha'is have reached the "pinnacle"? How many have given it all to serve the cause? A few I'm sure, but I doubt very many. That's the problem with religion. Too easy to just "say" you believe and do very little to live it. That's the opposite of what religious people are supposed to do. Isn't it let deeds, not words, be what you're known for? But it's much easier to talk about it then doing it. And it's even easier to hear other people talk about it and just sit and listen.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The light can be seen before the sun rises CG.

Regards Tony
Or, the "light" of new thinking was already being talked about and the "prophets" took it and used it and claimed they came up with the ideas. And, I don't know, but others have commented on the wrong science being talked about in Baha'u'llah's writings. But again, God really had to put the knowledge of nuclear weapons into air for people to tap into? Oh, and biological weapons too. Why give people that are prone to doing evil the knowledge of how to make better ways to kill? Or that was all part of God's grand plan?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes I see prophecy does support what is happening.

RegardsTony
Which prophecies? Especially the ones that would support that two manifestations would come, one would be killed and the other imprisoned, they would be rejected and then the world be thrown into turmoil for more than a hundred years after the death of the main prophet, and still... no peace and unity?

Then what is the final prophecy? Will the world be governed by the Baha'i UHJ? Will "God's" laws, the laws that Baha'u'llah claims to have come from God, become the law of the whole world? Will there really be peace and unity? Or will there still be liars, thieves, murderers and even wars during the "Most Great Peace"?

Actually, I hope a different Baha'i gives me an answer, because you tend not to answer anything, just things like, "We'll have to see". "It is for you to find out". "We all must follow our heart". You get a lot of "Winners" but you answer nothing. Do Baha'is have "The Answer" to the problems of the world or not? They have an answer, but is it "The Answer"? Is it "God's" answer? Will that answer really work?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
To me this is to do things backwards.

If a person came to you claiming to have superpowers and refuse to demonstrate it. Then it is not up to you to determine whether this person actually have set powers or not. You wouldn't start a massive investigation and research trying to figure out whether this person is telling the truth or not.

It is exactly the same with Baha'u'llah.

So what according to you and the others replying in this thread that are also Bahai's, what would prove or what conditions are needed in order for you to not think that Baha'u'llah were the messiah? Because so far, I haven't seen any conditions that would make you think that he is not.
Again because you are doing this backwards, you don't expect him to provide any demonstration of this claim. And your default position is that he is telling the truth.

But I don't know how you would recognize a messiah in the first place? Again, what or who are you validating this against?

I know that you have listed those things, like that we can know him by his character, life etc. Which doesn't work, unless you have a very specific definition of what a messiah is capable of, which from what I can see you don't have.
If the Baha'i prophets, including Abdul Baha', did do miracles, then why do Baha'is say that the miracles in the Bible were symbolic? Especially saying that the resurrection of Jesus was not physical but a spiritual thing? The gospels go out of their way to say that Jesus had indeed come back to life, and the Baha'is go out of their way to say that Jesus did not come back to life but his physical body stayed dead? So did Baha'u'llah raise someone back to life? Did Abdul Baha' cure an incurable disease and stop a rain storm? Baha'is have got to make up their minds.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
n general, "godless" people seem to be less violent and more tolerant than religious people.
If that's so that religious people are less tolerant, it's a distortion of the original religion. There are historical and cultural influences that influence what was originally taught. I dispute that religious people are more violent even today. I think perhaps you mistated here? In the first sentence you mentioned secular liberal democracies, not "godless" people. It was the statement abou "godless" people I was responding to. Being "godless" and secular liberal democracies are not synomynous.

I'm really tired of arguing here. I want to stop doing that now, and agree to disagree. This is fruitless.
 
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