Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It matters as soon as you CLAIM that the restriction is based upon prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination.
That is a bald assertion if there are no facts in evidence.
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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
That is a bald assertion if there are no facts in evidence.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Disruption in society is not an excuse to shun universal suffrage. That is one of the arguments against abolition, womens' suffrage, civil rights, marriage equality and trans rights. Society will adjust.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But the difference between me and you and Policy and KWED is that I am not jumping to conclusions.
I am saying I don't know why Baha'u'llah set that stipulation. Only He knew why.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Here's a Baha'i reference to firesides...
A Fireside is an event held in a Bahá’í home to teach the Bahá’í Faith.[1]
Shoghi Effendi described and promoted firesides in a letter written on his behalf in 1950 noting they were being used in the United States:
"… One of the best ways to teach is what the Americans call a 'fireside', in other words a little group of your friends in your own home, to whom you can introduce a few believers whom you feel would be congenial and help confirm them. When you have made them true Bahá’ís, then take them to the community and let them be accepted. In this way they are protected from tests until their faith is really strong."[2]
In 1955 and 1957 letters written on his behalf Shoghi Effendi advised that Bahá’ís should hold a fireside in their home every nineteen days:
"… I would like to comment that it has been found over the entire world that the most effective method of teaching the Faith is the fireside meeting in the home. Every Bahá’í as a part of his spiritual birthright, must teach, and the one avenue where he can do this most effectively is by inviting friends into his home once in 19 days, and gradually attracting them to the Cause."[3]
"The friends must realize their individual responsibility. Each must hold a Fireside in his or her home, once in 19 days, where new people are invited, and where some phase of the Faith is mentioned and discussed. If this is done with the intent of showing Bahá’í hospitality and love, then there will be results. People will become interested in 'what' you are interested in, and then be interested in studying. Individual firesides will bring the knowledge of the Faith to more people, under favourable circumstances, and thus constantly enrich its circle of friends, and finally its members. There is no substitute for the teaching work of the individual."[4]
In 1969 the Universal House of Justice advised Bahá’ís to adopt individual teaching goals noting firesides were a means by which they could be pursued:
"… It is now imperative for every Bahá’í to set for himself individual teaching goals. The admonition of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to lead at least one new soul to the Faith each year and the exhortation of Shoghi Effendi to hold a Bahá’í fireside in one's home every Bahá’í month are examples of individual goals. Many have capacities to do even more, but this alone will assure final and complete victory for the Plan."[5]
In 2015 the Universal House of Justice discussed firesides in the context of the institute process:
"Conversations about the Person of Bahá’u’lláh and the purpose of His mission occur in a variety of settings, including firesides and visits to homes. The actions undertaken during this phase allow abilities developed through studying the relevant institute materials to be exercised and refined."[6]
Several communities hold weekly firesides. They usually very small, unless a well-known guest speaker is going to lead it. They be similar to a home Bible study that was geared to introduce people to Christianity. Baha'is also had "deepenings" that were meant for Baha'i to teach them some of the "deeper" teachings. Back when I was around Baha'is, deepening weren't something that happened on a consistent basis. The main "Baha'i only" thing they do is called the "nineteen day Feast". Their months last 19 days, so this feast is their monthly community gathering. They read Baha'i writings and say Baha'i prayers, have a business portion where the Local Spiritual Assembly gives a report, but there needs to be at least 9 adult Baha'is in a community to have an "LSA". The quality of any of these events varied a lot between communities. My Baha'i friends took me to Firesides in other communities that were led by very knowledgeable and charismatic speakers. That was 50 years ago and they really hyped up that a "new day" was dawning. Some even quoted an "unofficial" thing about the "lesser" peace would be established by the year 2000. Like I've mentioned before, I was young and spiritually gullible back then, I believed pretty much anything. The Baha'i Faith sounded pretty good back then.Shoghi Effendi described and promoted firesides in a letter written on his behalf in 1950 noting they were being used in the United States:
"… One of the best ways to teach is what the Americans call a 'fireside', in other words a little group of your friends in your own home, to whom you can introduce a few believers whom you feel would be congenial and help confirm them. When you have made them true Bahá’ís, then take them to the community and let them be accepted. In this way they are protected from tests until their faith is really strong."[2]
In 1955 and 1957 letters written on his behalf Shoghi Effendi advised that Bahá’ís should hold a fireside in their home every nineteen days:
"… I would like to comment that it has been found over the entire world that the most effective method of teaching the Faith is the fireside meeting in the home. Every Bahá’í as a part of his spiritual birthright, must teach, and the one avenue where he can do this most effectively is by inviting friends into his home once in 19 days, and gradually attracting them to the Cause."[3]
"The friends must realize their individual responsibility. Each must hold a Fireside in his or her home, once in 19 days, where new people are invited, and where some phase of the Faith is mentioned and discussed. If this is done with the intent of showing Bahá’í hospitality and love, then there will be results. People will become interested in 'what' you are interested in, and then be interested in studying. Individual firesides will bring the knowledge of the Faith to more people, under favourable circumstances, and thus constantly enrich its circle of friends, and finally its members. There is no substitute for the teaching work of the individual."[4]
In 1969 the Universal House of Justice advised Bahá’ís to adopt individual teaching goals noting firesides were a means by which they could be pursued:
"… It is now imperative for every Bahá’í to set for himself individual teaching goals. The admonition of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to lead at least one new soul to the Faith each year and the exhortation of Shoghi Effendi to hold a Bahá’í fireside in one's home every Bahá’í month are examples of individual goals. Many have capacities to do even more, but this alone will assure final and complete victory for the Plan."[5]
In 2015 the Universal House of Justice discussed firesides in the context of the institute process:
"Conversations about the Person of Bahá’u’lláh and the purpose of His mission occur in a variety of settings, including firesides and visits to homes. The actions undertaken during this phase allow abilities developed through studying the relevant institute materials to be exercised and refined."[6]
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That was a red herring. We are not discussing universal suffrage and we are not talking about society adjusting, we are talking about one specific instance of exclusion.
ppp
Well-Known Member
But I didn't claim that, dear. I didn't address the reason behind the policy at all. I said you have a sexist system. And I told you why it's sexist. You simply choose ignore what I said so that you can gripe about what you want me to have said. Try addressing my actual words rather than what you want my actual words to be.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
A sexist system simply because women cannot serve on ONE Baha'i institution?
I think you need a course in logic since that is the fallacy of hasty generalization as well as the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.
National Spiritual Assembly members who are women, Percentage of, 1953-2007
Another logical problem that you cannot overcome is that since you do not know the reason why women are excluded since you did not set the stipulation, so you cannot know it is showing prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination. As such all you have is a personal opinion which you cannot ever prove as a fact.
sexist: characterized by or showing prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. sexist means - Google Search
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes you did claim that, as soon as you called it sexism.
Policy said: ↑
"Restricting women from holding positions of power and governance in a society is literally sexism.." <-- action
action (n) - The state or process of doing.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Nope. As I said, you are bending over backwards to gripe about what you want my words to be, rather than what I actually said. No surprise as there is no defence. Certainly no moral defense.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Okay then, you do not think it is a sexist system simply because women cannot serve on ONE Baha'i institution. You cannot have it both ways.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Ooooh. Lame try at a linguistic contortion. Do t try to be clever. You can escape if you simply don't respond.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I thought I quoted some stuff about that? Even the modern movement had some French guy talking about way before the Bab. But what if we did an experiment. We create a small nation made up of nothing but Baha'is and let them follow everything that Baha'u'llah said to do and see if it works? At the top we'll need 9 men to rule. We'll have arson investigators just to make sure none of the Baha'is play with matches. We'll have to have therapists to try and "fix" any gay Baha'is and get them straightened out. Oh, person in charge of collecting the fines of any Baha'i committing adultery or fornication. Then it will be interesting to see how their economic system works. It ought to be great. Probably they'll use clean energy sources. They won't pollute the land or the water. They'll probably make great products that are made of the best materials, so they last and last. Wages will be awesome. There will be no poor people or homeless people. And no super rich people either.
And even though all their ideas will be coming from God, I think it is still best just to test it out on a small scale... just to be sure it's going to work. You know, I hate to say it, but as I look around the world and see how things are so messed up, I don't know if I trust God to not screw things up again. Especially, because he's doing the same thing he did before... leaving it in the hands of people.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did respond.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
But these laws are for Baha'is, right? So where is the peace and unity if Baha'is are going to be setting fires and committing murder and other crimes? So a person should be killed by the same method that they used to commit their crime?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I wonder how many women work under them and for them and probably do most of the work? But to actually be a member of the UHJ? It has to be a man?What could possibly be the reason for a woman disrupting duties? Would they arouse so much passion in the men that they (the men) could not think straight? Are they reluctant to provide a women's restroom? Do they fear that women will display the common sense they lack?
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Even if all members of the UHJ were women, it would only be 9 people. Why not make it 5 men and 4 women? That way men could still have the tie breaking vote? Oh, and you might know, how many women work at the Baha'i world headquarters? Do they do their word there, then go off to their other job of teaching children? Oh, and men can't do as good a job of teaching children as women?
Not sure why you raised the issue of peace and unity CG.
Most likely these laws will not see the light of day for centuries. It will be up to the lawmakers that are part of the world legislative to enact laws applicable to the world and National Governments to enact the laws of the land.
It really is pointless speculating on them now as who knows how our opinions will change in the near to distant future.
Regards Tony
I do not need to question God. There is a law, there is a promise, that in the future it will be obvious as to why.
I do not expect, those with an unbound liberal mindset to embrace those concepts.
Regards Tony
One can look at this with a mindset born out of liberty carried to access.
One can also see it in the Spirit Baha'u'llah offered that men and women are equal.
I can offer, that I in no way shape or form would ever want to be elected to the Universal House of Justice. In fact Baha'u'llah offered that in the future it may be that no one will who will want to take upon themselves any position of authority.
That type of ambition is not desirable, in fact I see it is dangerous and I see it is a great bounty to be exempt from any ambition in this regard.
You are aware of what happens if one thinks they have better ideas for the direction the Baha'i Faith should pursue, if they are not members of the elected bodies. This faith is not about individual goals, it supports individuals that have a collective goal and are willing to submit to those that are elected.
Regards Tony