Super Universe
Defender of God
So God is at fault for allowing humans free will? Even the free will to incorrectly blame Him for every unknown?
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Who was the devil?
- Thread starter OneTwo
- Start date
So God is at fault for allowing humans free will? Even the free will to incorrectly blame Him for every unknown?
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
He was this little fat guy that used to sell used cars downtown. Then he turned his business over to a larger company. Now he lives next to a sewer drain under a bridge in the bad side of town. That big old company still has his name, rights to his junk and stuff. Poor guy. I give him a dollar every now and then. I know he uses it for liquor but at least it's honest money from an honest man.
How did you possibly get that? The responses to people who don't agree with or follow your god are definitely human responses. What does that have to do with blaming god for allowing free will?
Infinitum
Possessed Bookworm
I think the Devil is an idea and a very strong one too. All or most cultures have descriptions of tricksters or demons and all pantheons I'm aware of have deities for the light and the dark. He's something we find in ourselves and in people arond us, and we've needed to give him a name and a form to be able to cope with what we find. All tricksters aren't even evil. They can help you, but they're generally unreliable and often pretty scary.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
death is the consequence of leaving God....just as drowning is the consequence of trying to breath underwater.
arthra
Baha'i
That's why there's a second quote:
The attributes of God are love and mercy; the attribute of Satan is hate. Therefore, he who is merciful and kind to his fellowmen is manifesting the divine attribute, and he who is hating and hostile toward a fellow creature is satanic. God is absolute love, even as Jesus Christ has declared, and Satan is utter hatred. Wherever love is witnessed, know that there is a manifestation of God's mercy; whenever you meet hatred and enmity, know that these are the evidences and attributes of Satan.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 40)
Some of us say we live in a free country because we can make decisions about our life, work, travel, and other things. Still, we are under laws that penalize violators. For good order, God has laws to protect us and others, and he expects us to obey these.
As Sovereign of all things, including our earth and mankind, God has the right to decide who will live and who will not. He tells us what his purposes are and what he will do to those who flaunt his rightful rulership over them. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)
I believe God gives each of us the gift to choose whether to serve him. We are not robots forced to follow a predetermined program of conduct. Neither are angels. As Deuteronomy 30:19,20 states: "I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him."
The fact that so many choose to ignore God and his laws is strong evidence that free will does exist among humans. Angels? Same thing.
In which of his many books does he do this, the Qu'ran? Your god is exactly the same as all the other gods, in that his capacity for communication of his requirements to his alleged creations can only be compared to the the ability of a rock attempting communication with man.:thud:
No mention of love in your life there, you claim that an invisible sky daddy loves you, I say spit in one hand and wish in the other and see which one gets wet first. I know what love is and it's not the threatening of eternal torment for my loved ones.
Ah the bogeyman principle raises it's predictably ugly head pretending to be an all loving sky daddy.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the evidence is in the scriptures. It is explained how some angels became disobedient. This implies they have free will because they can obey or disobey just like we can.
Jude 6 And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day
1Peter 3:19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noahs days, while the ark was being constructed
2 Peter 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;
There is also the mention of the Cherub by the prophet Ezekiel...the cherub chose to be unrighteous:
Ezekiel 28;14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
these scriptures show that angels can sin and have sinned and will be judged for their actions.
Jacksnyte
Reverend
OneTwo
Member
Pegg, do you believe every word that the Holy Bible we see today states?
I have to be honest with you. The authenticity of The Bible is highly doubtful, there is proof that the Bible has been changed is some ways. Plus the Bible is the word of God, yet the New Testament is written by man? I'm sorry. You make a point that you believe in strongly, however I do not believe everything in the Bible, I do believe some parts, but not all, therefore I cannot say much further without insulting someone. I just don't accept justification of a point from a book which has been changed..
I have to be honest with you. The authenticity of The Bible is highly doubtful, there is proof that the Bible has been changed is some ways. Plus the Bible is the word of God, yet the New Testament is written by man? I'm sorry. You make a point that you believe in strongly, however I do not believe everything in the Bible, I do believe some parts, but not all, therefore I cannot say much further without insulting someone. I just don't accept justification of a point from a book which has been changed..
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
hi, i appreciate your point, i understand that not all people believe the bible can be trusted. However, the bible has been picked apart and closely examined by many many people and it has been found to be a very reliable and well preserved document. Of the many thousands of copied manuscripts in the many ancient languages it was copied into, the differences are so minor that they dont affect the overall message. The differences are merely copyist errors, words written twice or spelling mistakes. And of the passages that have been deliberately changed, those changes are easily identifiable because earlier manuscripts do not contain them. When the oldest manuscripts are compared to what we have today, we are reading the same thing.
I guess the other issue for many people is whether it is really inpsired by God or not. God didnt write it and hand it out to us, but those early prophets and apostles of Jesus are the ones who wrote its many books.
But yes, i do believe it is inspired and the information in it is 100% reliable and accurate.
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God has provided a written record of his dealings, purposes, and will, available today to virtually all mankind, the Holy Scriptures. The Bible is a primary way God communicates to mankind. It is not the communicator that is at fault, but men who choose not to listen. (Matthew 13:15)
Jacksnyte
Reverend
Who was the devil? here's one take on the question:
THE DARKNESS WAS ONE - A DOCTRINE OF COSMOGENESIS
translated: Tani Jantsang
The Eternal Parent, wrapped in invisible robes slumbered. Time was not, for it lay asleep in the infinite bosom of duration. Space was not, for there was no place or point. Darkness alone filled the Boundless All. And the Darkness was One.
The Seven Sublime Forms and the Five Truths were not yet, and the universe, the child of Necessity, had not yet been breathed out. Alone, the One Form of Being stretched boundless, infinite, causeless, in dreamless sleep. And life pulsated unconscious, throughout that all-presence. The Great Wheel was not yet. The Dark Formers and the Luminous Forms, were not yet. The Forms that come from No-form rested in the bliss of eternal non-being. And the Darkness was One.
A vibration thrills through Darkness, expanding within and without, touching the whole Universe which was now an embryo in Darkness. Then, the Ray flashed out into a web of 7 lights, and the 5 truths molded the whole into LIFE. Yet still, the Darkness was One.
And the Cosmos was born from the web, a woven fabric of many colors and tones. And the cloth was woven perfectly, no color dominated, yet none were the same; no tones were the same, yet all were harmonious; all blended in a variegated ever-changing cloth, whose capacity for infinite change was proof of the miracle of life. And all things living are part of this woven fabric of life. And all they have to do to delight in this gift of life, is BE. Yet through the changing of times and places, through the births and deaths of stars that form the Web of Life, the Wheel Spins relentlessly in the Grand Illusion. Yet still, the Darkness IS One.
And is man part of this woven fabric of life? Yes! All man has to do to delight in this gift of life, is BE. But man has not been content with the harmony in the fabric. And so man tried to change the fabric of the cloth and found that this was easy. Man wanted to have the blues dominate over the reds, to get rid of the greens and yellows; he wanted there to be the same tones, not different tones. And though most of the tones are gone, man finds that what remains is a discordant, disharmonious noise that causes him much unrest. Yet will man continue to try to "fix" this until finally, there is nothing left but a torn up, shredded, scrap of cloth: the remains of the fabric that was man? Perhaps. Yet still, the Darkness is One, was One, ever will be One.
THE DARKNESS WAS ONE - A DOCTRINE OF COSMOGENESIS
translated: Tani Jantsang
The Eternal Parent, wrapped in invisible robes slumbered. Time was not, for it lay asleep in the infinite bosom of duration. Space was not, for there was no place or point. Darkness alone filled the Boundless All. And the Darkness was One.
The Seven Sublime Forms and the Five Truths were not yet, and the universe, the child of Necessity, had not yet been breathed out. Alone, the One Form of Being stretched boundless, infinite, causeless, in dreamless sleep. And life pulsated unconscious, throughout that all-presence. The Great Wheel was not yet. The Dark Formers and the Luminous Forms, were not yet. The Forms that come from No-form rested in the bliss of eternal non-being. And the Darkness was One.
A vibration thrills through Darkness, expanding within and without, touching the whole Universe which was now an embryo in Darkness. Then, the Ray flashed out into a web of 7 lights, and the 5 truths molded the whole into LIFE. Yet still, the Darkness was One.
And the Cosmos was born from the web, a woven fabric of many colors and tones. And the cloth was woven perfectly, no color dominated, yet none were the same; no tones were the same, yet all were harmonious; all blended in a variegated ever-changing cloth, whose capacity for infinite change was proof of the miracle of life. And all things living are part of this woven fabric of life. And all they have to do to delight in this gift of life, is BE. Yet through the changing of times and places, through the births and deaths of stars that form the Web of Life, the Wheel Spins relentlessly in the Grand Illusion. Yet still, the Darkness IS One.
And is man part of this woven fabric of life? Yes! All man has to do to delight in this gift of life, is BE. But man has not been content with the harmony in the fabric. And so man tried to change the fabric of the cloth and found that this was easy. Man wanted to have the blues dominate over the reds, to get rid of the greens and yellows; he wanted there to be the same tones, not different tones. And though most of the tones are gone, man finds that what remains is a discordant, disharmonious noise that causes him much unrest. Yet will man continue to try to "fix" this until finally, there is nothing left but a torn up, shredded, scrap of cloth: the remains of the fabric that was man? Perhaps. Yet still, the Darkness is One, was One, ever will be One.
OneTwo
Member
Pegg, I understand your point and respect it. I do believe what your saying is true, but do the Christians of today follow the message of the original Bible, and follow Jesus (pbuh) teachings and way of life? Or do they follow what is in the Bible we see today? And I do understand that you believe that there will be little difference. However, the dead sea scrolls is evidence that sections of the Bible were taken out to be forever deleted, so it is more then misspellings and grammatical alterations that occurred.
The bible was compiled by the Catholic Church, if there are verses or whatever in the dead sea scrolls that are missing, then they weren't included in the canonised bible, they weren't "forever deleted" That would be like the verses of the quran that didn't make it to the final copy, because of lack of authenticity. Were they "forever deleted"?