cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
I believe there is no such thing as Angels. What makes you think they exist?
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Who was the devil?
- Thread starter OneTwo
- Start date
I believe there is no such thing as Angels. What makes you think they exist?
That's a rather LARGE claim. Don't you think?
NeedingGnosisNow
super-human
Using this stolen power, Yaldabaoth creates a material world in imitation of the divine Pleroma. To complete this task, he spawns a group of entities known collectively as Archons, 'petty rulers' and craftsmen of the physical world. Like him, they are commonly depicted as theriomorphic, having the heads of animals. Some texts explicitly identify the Archons with the fallen angels described in the Enoch tradition in Judaic apocrypha. At this point the events of the Sethian narrative begin to cohere with the events of Genesis, with the demiurge and his archontic cohorts fulfilling the role of the creator. As in Genesis, the demiurge declares himself to be the only god, and that none exist superior to him; however, the audience's knowledge of what has gone before casts this statement, and the nature of the creator itself, in a radically different light.
The demiurge creates Adam, during the process unwittingly transferring the portion of power stolen from Sophia into the first physical human body. He then creates Eve from Adam's rib, in an attempt to isolate and regain the power he has lost. By way of this he attempts to rape Eve who now contains Sophia's divine power; several texts depict him as failing when Sophia's spirit transplants itself into the Tree of Knowledge; thereafter, the pair are 'tempted' by the serpent, and eat of the forbidden fruit, thereby once more regaining the power that the demiurge had stolen.
As is evident, the addition of the prologue radically alters the significance of events in Eden; rather than emphasizing a fall of human weakness in breaking God's command, Sethians (and their inheritors) emphasize a crisis of the Divine Fullness as it encounters the ignorance of matter, as depicted in stories about Sophia. Adam and Eve's removal from the Archon's paradise is seen as a step towards freedom from the Archons, and the serpent in the Garden of Eden in some cases becomes a heroic, salvific figure rather than an adversary of humanity or a 'proto-Satan'. Eating the fruit of Knowledge is the first act of human salvation from cruel, oppressive powers.
So it seems to me that the early churches took the story of the Demiurge and made it their own. Turning him into Satan. Probably just to scare people and make them obey.
The demiurge creates Adam, during the process unwittingly transferring the portion of power stolen from Sophia into the first physical human body. He then creates Eve from Adam's rib, in an attempt to isolate and regain the power he has lost. By way of this he attempts to rape Eve who now contains Sophia's divine power; several texts depict him as failing when Sophia's spirit transplants itself into the Tree of Knowledge; thereafter, the pair are 'tempted' by the serpent, and eat of the forbidden fruit, thereby once more regaining the power that the demiurge had stolen.
As is evident, the addition of the prologue radically alters the significance of events in Eden; rather than emphasizing a fall of human weakness in breaking God's command, Sethians (and their inheritors) emphasize a crisis of the Divine Fullness as it encounters the ignorance of matter, as depicted in stories about Sophia. Adam and Eve's removal from the Archon's paradise is seen as a step towards freedom from the Archons, and the serpent in the Garden of Eden in some cases becomes a heroic, salvific figure rather than an adversary of humanity or a 'proto-Satan'. Eating the fruit of Knowledge is the first act of human salvation from cruel, oppressive powers.
So it seems to me that the early churches took the story of the Demiurge and made it their own. Turning him into Satan. Probably just to scare people and make them obey.
confused453
Active Member
If the devil was an evil angel at some point in time, don't you think that it's possible that it changed its mind by now, and might have different views? How long can one be evil, 1000 years, 100,000,000 years? Surely one person or entity can't be evil for eternity? Unless it was programmed on purpose to be so? But if there's any intelligence in it, it might get the truth eventually or already did by now.. The bible was written like what, 2000 years ago? What about now? When I read a book about the universe, Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, am I reading present bible? None of it makes any sense.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I'm of the belief that Satan and Lucifer are one and the same and that he is a fallen angel. He is still very beautiful and it is very easy to forget that he is defeated.
Since God made his intelligent creatures perfect, they have the capacity to decide whether to do God's will or not. Being perfect, they have no inborn tendency to act in a way that is wrong or sinful. I think the Bible clearly teaches we, as children of Adam and Eve, do have the tendency to do what is bad. (Genesis 8:21, Romans 7:21-24)
Satan, Adam, and Eve did not have this sinful tendency. So when they rebelled against God, it was done willingly, deliberately, and neither Satan, Adam, nor Eve showed any evidence of repentance. Eventually, Adam and Eve died. However, the Bible states that Satan has continued his rebellion down till today. (Revelation 12:9,12) Since Satan deliberately and "with malice aforethought" challenged God's Sovereignty, he has not, nor ever will "repent", as an imperfect human can over their sins. Satan had no weaknesses or imperfections that moved him to sin. Being willfully wicked and evil, the Devil will be destroyed at God's due time. (Matthew 25:41) I believe the Bible teaches that even some humans can commit sins that are done deliberately and knowingly, sins that will not be forgiven. (Mark 3:29)
There is no test because Allah wrote your story before he created the world, you are either in heaven or in hell according to Allah's knowledge.
Orias
Left Hand Path
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
What I find most interesting is that the emergence of the idea of a Devil (at least one with the level of capacity now associated with that entity) or similar character within a monotheistic religion tends to occur at about the same time as the redefinition or altered understanding of a god historically associated with both good and ill, to become a god of primarily good. The timing and nature of the characteristics (and roles) of the original understanding of the entities and understanding of the emerging entities, seems too coincidental to be unrelated.
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There we have it, the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve "do have the tendency to do what is bad". But "Since God made his intelligent creatures perfect, they have the capacity to decide whether to do God's will or not. Being perfect, they have no inborn tendency to act in a way that is wrong or sinful." and yet allegedly did evil. So now the imperfect offspring of A&E will overcome their inbuilt imperfection and be sinless in heaven, even though the PERFECT progenitors were incapable of the same. I have some land just north of Darwin I'm trying to sell, PM me and we can discuss price.
It is not that Satan, Adam, and Eve were incapable of perfect integrity. To the contrary, being sinless and made in the image of God, they could choose to obey their Lifegiver and Father without any defect of sin. Their bad choice led them to sin. Millions of other spirit sons of God, most notably the one who later became Jesus Christ, did keep perfect integrity to Jehovah, according to the Bible. Many imperfect men and women also kept integrity to God. (Hebrews 11)
I did not say, nor does the Bible teach, that all good people will "be sinless in heaven". I believe that the Bible teaches most of mankind will live forever on earth. Thanks for the land offer, but no thanks.
I love equivocation, don't you? But if you believe that there will be sin in heaven and on earth, for eternity, what is the point? This Jesus who was tempted by Satan in the desert, was he the same one who said that if you lust for a woman in your mind you have committed adultery? Was he saying that if you are tempted you have sinned? Sounds like the message being preached. Does that mean because Jesus was tempted he actually committed sin? I'm certain you will have an unconvincing equivocation for this.
Wait? The devil was DESIGNED? Where did that come from?
Orias
Left Hand Path
Designed by what?Just like all Gods and non-Gods
Ahh, so you agree with me. They're all crap?