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Who was the devil?
- Thread starter OneTwo
- Start date
I'm happy to see that you have the solution on hand.
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
The opposition? The acknowledgement that deviations exist from the perceived will of some perceived 'god'?
I have never liked such a phrasing... 'the opposition'... it implies the two are in conflict where there is no need to believe so. Instead I think it is merely that a 'devil' or similar concept exists to explain those deviations from the perceived will of some perceived 'god' - not in terms of opposition to that will but rather either the inability or unwillingness of that 'god' to manifest that will.
The devil is not so much 'the opposition' but rather 'the excuse.'
I have never liked such a phrasing... 'the opposition'... it implies the two are in conflict where there is no need to believe so. Instead I think it is merely that a 'devil' or similar concept exists to explain those deviations from the perceived will of some perceived 'god' - not in terms of opposition to that will but rather either the inability or unwillingness of that 'god' to manifest that will.
The devil is not so much 'the opposition' but rather 'the excuse.'
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
I know what the term literally means, however I disagree with the concept portrayed by the term as far as opposition towards 'god,' in terms of the appearance within the old testament, satan and Ha-satan are an expression of opposition to or accusation against man, not against god (as he was a slanderer or diabolos of man - not of god)... I understand in the jewish apocrypha there are some that attribute a satan with a different status (one who was cast from heaven) however he is usually depicted until much later in the tradition as being a servant of god, certainly not god's opposition.
It is not until much later, where the god of all things becomes the god of goodness where satan obtains god-like status over that which is not 'goodness'.
p.s. Beelzebub on the other hand is simply how they mocked the god of others (Ba‘al Zəbûb or Ba'al the prince/the high lord etc) - incorporating the gods of other religions into their tradition to combine the gods of those they did not like with the stories they disliked from within their own tradition (such as the mean old 'opposition' of man - not god).
It is not until much later, where the god of all things becomes the god of goodness where satan obtains god-like status over that which is not 'goodness'.
p.s. Beelzebub on the other hand is simply how they mocked the god of others (Ba‘al Zəbûb or Ba'al the prince/the high lord etc) - incorporating the gods of other religions into their tradition to combine the gods of those they did not like with the stories they disliked from within their own tradition (such as the mean old 'opposition' of man - not god).
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"WHO WAS THE DEVIL" I'm quite new here on these postings, but I would like to add a relpy at this question. Hope it doesn't offend too much? Hello all!
Fist- If anyone here believes in the triditional King James Bible, being just as close to factual and authentic as most al of the other so called "MANMADE" test, the King James Bible informs its reader, God is absolutely the one and only CREATOR there is throughout existence (whether it is in the heavenly or spiritual realm or physical realm, or otherwise?). Now then, from that understanding alone we can now safely say, the Deveil (or Satan) really did not and absolutely could not create his own spiritual or angelic self. The concerns here should actually be one one things at this time. If Satan and/or the "Devil" did not create himself, then God must have had something to do with the mysterious existence of this very long misunderstood and widley debated creature or spiritual being our home world has been locked upon and has constantly remained so deeply concerned over and also so absolutely mystified and confused over for thousands of years, throughout ancient Biblical history?
My question here just may even jumpstart a much deeper kind of logical curiosity perhaps within some and it may also personally challange others to a frightful degree; nonetheless, here it goes:
If God is indeed somewhat responsible for the strange and somewhat out of the ordenary existence of "The Devil"or Satan, then wonder why this all knowing and all wise God personally choose to do such a thing, to start with? And, also, think about this; wonder what deep mysterious driving feeeling or motivation strangely awoke in God and then begin to move and evolved behind that feeling creating some long overlooked existence of a Godly Motive, which also begin to activate deep within God, emotionally moving Gods' understandings and then begin to strongely compel God to act and perform His very first offical act of Godly creation, now we all can see that some form of angelic life came about and all was also unfolding under His Godly abilities to create things out of absolutely nothing?
OK, I think I have gone far enough for now, believe me there is much more to add here, but for now I will stop and see what unfolds from this posting. PLease forgive me if I have offended anyone with these ideas; but, I just had to say something. God Bless all and see ya later.
:run:
Fist- If anyone here believes in the triditional King James Bible, being just as close to factual and authentic as most al of the other so called "MANMADE" test, the King James Bible informs its reader, God is absolutely the one and only CREATOR there is throughout existence (whether it is in the heavenly or spiritual realm or physical realm, or otherwise?). Now then, from that understanding alone we can now safely say, the Deveil (or Satan) really did not and absolutely could not create his own spiritual or angelic self. The concerns here should actually be one one things at this time. If Satan and/or the "Devil" did not create himself, then God must have had something to do with the mysterious existence of this very long misunderstood and widley debated creature or spiritual being our home world has been locked upon and has constantly remained so deeply concerned over and also so absolutely mystified and confused over for thousands of years, throughout ancient Biblical history?
My question here just may even jumpstart a much deeper kind of logical curiosity perhaps within some and it may also personally challange others to a frightful degree; nonetheless, here it goes:
If God is indeed somewhat responsible for the strange and somewhat out of the ordenary existence of "The Devil"or Satan, then wonder why this all knowing and all wise God personally choose to do such a thing, to start with? And, also, think about this; wonder what deep mysterious driving feeeling or motivation strangely awoke in God and then begin to move and evolved behind that feeling creating some long overlooked existence of a Godly Motive, which also begin to activate deep within God, emotionally moving Gods' understandings and then begin to strongely compel God to act and perform His very first offical act of Godly creation, now we all can see that some form of angelic life came about and all was also unfolding under His Godly abilities to create things out of absolutely nothing?
OK, I think I have gone far enough for now, believe me there is much more to add here, but for now I will stop and see what unfolds from this posting. PLease forgive me if I have offended anyone with these ideas; but, I just had to say something. God Bless all and see ya later.
:run:It can often do that...! More often than not indesputable facts and truth tends to do a lot of people that very same way
You'll be OK though, just keep the old eyes open and be cool, and the sun will rise. Have a good day...InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
Hiya Cup, welcome to RF.... first up PLEASE use paragraphs... its really hard to read otherwise.
Okay then onto the post itself; it is a very good point that among those theological positions that first envisaged a satan had only one creator whom was responsible for ALL creation. If we hold that creator to be 'good,' and that satan to be 'bad,' why would the creator create satan unless it desired something which included 'bad.'
Okay then onto the post itself; it is a very good point that among those theological positions that first envisaged a satan had only one creator whom was responsible for ALL creation. If we hold that creator to be 'good,' and that satan to be 'bad,' why would the creator create satan unless it desired something which included 'bad.'
Sorry informedignorance, First I would like to communicate with you and talk, however, I never really thought about such ways of writing my paragraphs as I do. or that it would be hard to read in that manner. I'll do my best to do better. This is the first time I've done this kind of communication with others on postings such as these.
I'll try to do much better :foot:; however, I think I can do better talking directly to a huge group of people or maybe at a speaking engagament, perhaps.
However, I would have to be the first one to admit, it's extremely difficult, for a very huge majority of folks of today to personally relate to the long overlooked mystery of an extremely perfect "good creating" God (which would be considered only as a good creating God) as in having anything at all to do with the kind of a creative relationship between Himself and some adverse (imperfect) Satan (who stands completly for bad and/or evil); and, then, someone comes up and tells us the good creating God purposely created the bad or evil (imperfect) Satan, on purpose.
But, you see, the full facts concerning exactly why God would even do such a thing as create an evil aspect to challange the people of planet earth has been very long withheld, and even semi-hidden from some collectives of church worshipers mostly because of Christian leadership along with spiritual development into the deep mystery of human creation itself, and as also intended from the very start of Gods' very first offical act of divine creation all under Himself.
Most all common (or mere average minded, none critical thinking) everyday church (or Christian) leaders are extremely under qualified to lead others in the last day mystery of truth and a massive number of pulpit leaders are absolutely under-developed in this particular mysteriously long overlooked area of Biblical truth and scriptural understandings.
out of the thousands of preacher's and church leader's I have personally talked to absolutely not one has any good ideas concerning the semi-hidden plan God has for the creation of the entire human race.
Which, in very slightly relating to Gods' semi-hidden plan for human existence, there is a much deeper plan yet to be discovered by the entire Christian world, and that plan also consist of God using both aspects of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Bad (or evil) to strangely fulfill some (as of yet) widely unknown (but mostly by the entire christian world) dynamic plan for human creation under Himself.
Absolutely no Christian leader on our planet earth of today I know of is aware of and/or knows of such a most perfected Godly plan in the full working order behind mankind simple common day awareness of today; and, therefore, it stands to reason, absolutely no one today has been able to clearly see this dynamic plan or even propperly relate to it as of yet.
Therefore, it should also stands to reason at this time, absolutely no Christian leader of today has been able to see there is any kind of a semi-hidden Godly Motive, a GODLY MOTIVE existing behind the very widespread mystery-purpose for human creation and/or the existence of human life among the endless stars....o-well---at least---NOT YET anyway; but perhaps soon enough it will come and be openly revealed...!
Believe me or not, when this very long overlooked, semi-hidden mystery comes out in the opening, I do believe we can rest assured, the entire Christian world of our day may then begin to experance a very deep personal shock to the Bible believing system.
It is quite simple to understand but extremely hard to fully believe and personally relate to...! It will directly challange every Christian leader on the planet, it could also alter the face of entire Christian world.
But, Gods' end plans for human existence cannot possibly work without the existence of Satan. I have to stop here this can get deep and quite long to explain, but the truth can be discovered in a predicted VISION coming at the END:
HABAKKUK 2: 1-8
1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
6 Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
7 Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall bite thee, and awake that shall vex thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them?
8 Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the people shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.
Well how was my paragraphs...? ANy better? Bless your curiosity here, perhaps you will come to understand better what I speak of here...?
Have a good day
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
Much more easily read!
And yes, it may indeed be possible for the 'good' creator god to have created a 'bad' satan with god like powers for some unknown purpose; however regardless of that purpose, we must examine the means, not merely the ends (the ends do NOT justify the means). If satan is responsible for ANY alteration - either of events directly or of the will of people - which engenders a 'negative' outcome (suffering, immorality etc) then that means, that god's plan encompasses those outcomes - god planned those events... it may be that those events were planned in order to achieve some future outcome... such as someone suffering now so that they could prosper later - however the provision of positive outcomes does not repudiate the negative outcomes, especially without the informed consent of those involved.
In which case, such a plan would suggest god is not wholly good - at least not according to the definitions of words most people would ascribe to.
And yes, it may indeed be possible for the 'good' creator god to have created a 'bad' satan with god like powers for some unknown purpose; however regardless of that purpose, we must examine the means, not merely the ends (the ends do NOT justify the means). If satan is responsible for ANY alteration - either of events directly or of the will of people - which engenders a 'negative' outcome (suffering, immorality etc) then that means, that god's plan encompasses those outcomes - god planned those events... it may be that those events were planned in order to achieve some future outcome... such as someone suffering now so that they could prosper later - however the provision of positive outcomes does not repudiate the negative outcomes, especially without the informed consent of those involved.
In which case, such a plan would suggest god is not wholly good - at least not according to the definitions of words most people would ascribe to.
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