Who's teaching should a Christian focus on?

[Koldo]

Timothy is a letter traditionally attributed to Paul. I HIGHLY doubt he regarded his own letters as scriptures ( and yet, his letters are part of the bible ). Is there any indication in the bible that Paul did so?

Also, just because many books were written with a certain subject in mind it doesn't mean they had the same author. I suppose this is obvious.

 

[smokydot]

Timothy is a letter traditionally attributed to Paul. I HIGHLY doubt he regarded his own letters as scriptures ( and yet, his letters are part of the bible ). Is there any indication in the bible that Paul did so?

Peter did so. . .

2 Pe 3:16 -- "Paul writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Peter groups Paul's writings with the other Scriptures.

Also, just because many books were written with a certain subject in mind it doesn't mean they had the same author.

It does when it comes to God. . .

2 Tim 3:16 -- "All Scripture is God-breathed". . .from the very breath of God, who is the Holy Spirit.

I suppose this is obvious.

That depends on whether you have eyes that see, or not (Mt 13:16)

 

[MathewJames]

Peter did so. . .

2 Pe 3:16 -- "Paul writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Peter groups Paul's writings with the other Scriptures.
It does when it comes to God. . .

2 Tim 3:16 -- "All Scripture is God-breathed". . .from the very breath of God, who is the Holy Spirit.
That depends on whether you have eyes that see, or not (Mt 13:16)

Just curious, how much do you think people have distorted the Bible/Scriptures. Meaning how much do you think false teachings about the Bible are going on inside the Christian church.

 

[Civil Shephard]

Peter did so. . .

2 Pe 3:16 -- "Paul writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Peter groups Paul's writings with the other Scriptures.
It does when it comes to God. . .

2 Tim 3:16 -- "All Scripture is God-breathed". . .from the very breath of God, who is the Holy Spirit.
That depends on whether you have eyes that see, or not (Mt 13:16)

Well said smokeydot... I learned from you today that Peter said Pauls letters were scripture which is cool since I hadn't considered Peter's words about Pauls letters in awhile.

However... what I am trying to put forth is that Jesus words contain no middle man save that of our Heavenly Fathers Son. If we hold to his teaching then we are his disciples and we will know the truth and that truth will set us free from sin.

However... for the sake of this conversation I find it amazing that thrust of your conversation is to hold up the whole bible and slam it upon the heads of those who might actually want to study Jesus teachings and not be hampered by the many considerations that you claim everyone must believe in order to be saved.

The bible does not set us free from sin. Jesus sets us free from sin by his words brought to mind in our hearts by his Holy Spirit. But your presentation would cloud the issue and broaden the focus of those just about ready to look at Jesus words.

Will we draw people toward Christ with this or that doctrine claim the supreme authority of the bible or will the revelation knowledge of what it truly means to be poor in spirit help us and others to removes weeds and stones from our gardens?

Yes... the Bible is the Holy word of our Creator... But Jesus explains our Creators heart better than do the accounts of Moses and even my favorite prophet Isaiah saw through a glass darkly.

Please join in a non-debate about the Sermon on the Mount as you'll find a hearty discussion about the first beatitude there. Lets talk specificly about the words of Jesus.

 

[smokydot]

Well said smokeydot... I learned from you today that Peter said Pauls letters were scripture which is cool since I hadn't considered Peter's words about Pauls letters in awhile.
However... what I am trying to put forth is that Jesus words contain no middle man save that of our Heavenly Fathers Son. If we hold to his teaching then we are his disciples and we will know the truth and that truth will set us free from sin.
However... for the sake of this conversation I find it amazing that thrust of your conversation is to hold up the whole bible and slam it upon the heads of those who might actually want to study Jesus teachings and not be hampered by the many considerations that you claim everyone must believe in order to be saved.
The bible does not set us free from sin. Jesus sets us free from sin by his words brought to mind in our hearts by his Holy Spirit. But your presentation would cloud the issue and broaden the focus of those just about ready to look at Jesus words.
Will we draw people toward Christ with this or that doctrine claim the supreme authority of the bible or will the revelation knowledge of what it truly means to be poor in spirit help us and others to removes weeds and stones from our gardens?
Yes... the Bible is the Holy word of our Creator... But Jesus explains our Creators heart better than do the accounts of Moses and even my favorite prophet Isaiah saw through a glass darkly.
Please join in a non-debate about the Sermon on the Mount as you'll find a hearty discussion about the first beatitude there. Lets talk specificly about the words of Jesus.

I appreciate where you are coming from Civil, but we don't draw people toward Christ, only the Holy Spirit does that (Jn 6:65, 44). . .
and he doesn't need our "improvements" on God's Word to do so.
In fact, anything we think we are adding to make the Holy Spirit's work more effective (like using Jesus only) is really a subtraction from his work, as well as from the Word of God.

And I'll give consideration to your request. . .

 

[Koldo]

Peter did so. . .

2 Pe 3:16 -- "Paul writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Interesting. But at the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not you believe Peter had the authority to make such statement.

EDIT: There is also another thing that came up to me. By the time Peter wrote this, had he read Timothy letters? This is of major importance.

 

[smokydot]

Interesting. But at the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not you believe Peter had the authority to make such statement.

EDIT: There is also another thing that came up to me. By the time Peter wrote this, had he read Timothy letters? This is of major importance.

Whether the NT is true, or untrue are both matters of faith. . .because neither can be proven.

Your assertions about the NT are based in faith, just as mine are.

 

[Civil Shephard]

Whether the NT is true, or untrue are both matters of faith. . .because neither can be proven.

Your assertions about the NT are based in faith, just as mine are.

My real life name is Peter... and I can tell you that like Peter he would say that God the Father said, "this is my beloved Son, hear ye him".

 

[Beta]

....... God the Father said, "this is my beloved Son, hear ye him".

I am with you there CS.
Jesus is in authority over all - even the Disciples/Apostles.
What Jesus teaches can be trusted completely - not so men. With the best will in the world humans make mistakes , get things wrong. Following them absolutely is not recommended imo.
It is by following Paul's hard to understand words that all of christianity is in error. From them they have got the idea of sunday-worship something Jesus NEVER taught - and He always obeyed His Fathers Commandments .
Did GOD ever change the 7th day Sabbath ? Certainly not ! People got it from misunderstanding Paul who btw never kept sunday himself. He followed Christ 1Cor.11v1 and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[smokydot]

I am with you there CS.
Jesus is in authority over all - even the Disciples/Apostles.
What Jesus teaches can be trusted completely - not so men. With the best will in the world humans make mistakes , get things wrong. Following them absolutely is not recommended imo.
It is by following Paul's hard to understand words that all of christianity is in error. From them they have got the idea of sunday-worship something Jesus NEVER taught - and He always obeyed His Fathers Commandments .
Did GOD ever change the 7th day Sabbath ? Certainly not ! People got it from misunderstanding Paul who btw never kept sunday himself. He followed Christ 1Cor.11v1 and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

Very good. . .what Jesus teaches can be trusted completely. . .and Jesus said that Scripture is the Word of God (Mt 15:6).

Do not darken the counsel of God without knowledge by setting the Word of God against itself.

 

[Beta]

Very good. . .what Jesus teaches can be trusted completely. . .and Jesus said that Scripture is the Word of God (Mt 15:6).

Do not darken the counsel of God without knowledge by setting the Word of God against itself.

Well , just give me a scripture clearly stating that sunday is now the sanctified day of God and Jesus is no longer Lord of the Sabbath. Show me where the fourth Commandment tells us to keep sunday holy ?
Since when has man been given authority to change what GOD and JESUS say ?
If you mean Paul you are misunderstanding him. Why would he tell people to observe sunday while he himself kept the Sabbath ? Did he not tell people to follow him as he followed Christ ???

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well , just give me a scripture clearly stating that sunday is now the sanctified day of God and Jesus is no longer Lord of the Sabbath. Show me where the fourth Commandment tells us to keep sunday holy ?
Since when has man been given authority to change what GOD and JESUS say ?
If you mean Paul you are misunderstanding him. Why would he tell people to observe sunday while he himself kept the Sabbath ? Did he not tell people to follow him as he followed Christ ???

Jeez that's a tall order.

The first recorded time that Christians worshipped on the "Lord's day" is in Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 26), an early Christian writer in Rome.

 

[smokydot]

Jeez that's a tall order.
The first recorded time that Christians worshipped on the "Lord's day" is in Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 26), an early Christian writer in Rome.

It is also in his Apology 1. 67-68, which I think was before his Dialogue.

But we have the Word of God more certain in the NT.

 

[Beta]

Jeez that's a tall order.

The first recorded time that Christians worshipped on the "Lord's day" is in Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 26), an early Christian writer in Rome.

sorry friend - I did ask for scripture .
And btw, the Lord's day is when Christ returns Zech.14 and is no ref to sunday.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It is also in his Apology 1. 67-68.

Which came first?

The Dialog quotes the Apology, so it came first.

Dialogue with Trypho 120 = 1 Apol. 26

 

[angellous_evangellous]

sorry friend - I did ask for scripture .
And btw, the Lord's day is when Christ returns Zech.14 and is no ref to sunday.

Yes. I'm saying that it's not in Scripture.

 

[smokydot]

Well , just give me a scripture clearly stating that sunday is now the sanctified day of God and Jesus is no longer Lord of the Sabbath. Show me where the fourth Commandment tells us to keep sunday holy ?
Since when has man been given authority to change what GOD and JESUS say ?
If you mean Paul you are misunderstanding him. Why would he tell people to observe sunday while he himself kept the Sabbath ? Did he not tell people to follow him as he followed Christ ???

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mk 2:27). . .and Jesus gave the apostles authority to speak for him. (Lk 10:16; Jn 13:20).

So there's no need to object to the apostolic practice in the early Church of meeting on the day of the Lord's resurrection (Ac 20:7; see 1Co 16:2).

 

[Beta]

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mk 2:27). . .and Jesus gave the apostles authority to speak for him. (Lk 10:16; Jn 13:20).

So there's no need to object to the apostolic practice in the early Church of meeting on the day of the Lord's resurrection (Ac 20:7; see 1Co 16:2).

And you think this simple statement gives man the right to overrule God and Jesus ?
Why do you think all the early Disciples were Sabbath-keepers ? Because it was to serve as a foundation of true Christian religion. None of the early church met on a sunday (except to break bread, eat together) either before or after Jesus' resurrection which was NOT on a sunday. Had God wanted a sunday-congregation he would have started with Gentiles or existing sunday-keepers. There are no scriptures making changes in the Sabbath-Commandments and anything else is guesswork on man's part.
I am not entering into a long debate re this matter which has been mentioned already numerous times in past and other threads.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Jeez that's a tall order.

The first recorded time that Christians worshipped on the "Lord's day" is in Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 26), an early Christian writer in Rome.

Well I did some double checking and I was dead wrong about Justin. There are references that are earlier.

The wiki article is quite good. Lord's Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Civil Shephard]

This arguement reminds me a bit of the one where the pentacostal church split over being baptized in the name of Jesus or being baptized in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Wow...

It seems to me that the day of rest is a day of faith. We sin in unbelief and we rest in faith as the writer of Hebrews puts it.

But alas... I suppose my pet point is that we would do well as Christians to focus our behaviors and attitudes and platitudes on the beatitudes.

But it's OK smokeydot... you can read the proverbs... just don't start calling folks fools. Solomon might like that but Jesus sure didn't.