Whose fault is it anyway?

[look3467]

Thoughts to ponder.

If it was mankind's fault to have been condemned, via the expulsion from the garden, why then did Jesus have to pay the price?

If Jesus paid the price, what then becomes of the state of mankind's soul?

If it was the loss of mankind's soul that Jesus paid the price for, than, are all souls saved?

If the spirit/soul of mankind was saved, than why not the flesh as well?

Mankind's spirit/soul is saved and lives on after the death of the flesh......does it mean that the flesh is left to suffer the consequences for whatever trespasses we commit?

Is that what it means by what the bible says, "The wages of sin is death"?

Does it also mean that.... Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap?

So, in summary......is this what I understand to be the state of my life: Born innocent, condemned by my own intellect via my judgments, my soul saved by God, via His Son, but responsible for my own actions and accountable for them with consequences? And if, that is my understanding, I am assured, by God via His Son, that my soul is secured but not my body which is, subject to consequences and death.

Pick any point you like and lets discuss it.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Terese]

I apologise for intruding this DIR, but i read the title as 'Whose line is it anyway'.

 

[look3467]

Hi, Terese
Your option.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shiranui117]

Thoughts to ponder.

If it was mankind's fault to have been condemned, via the expulsion from the garden, why then did Jesus have to pay the price?

Jesus didn't pay a penalty to God as if He was taking our place. Rather, He became one of us and made His offering of Himself with us.

If Jesus paid the price, what then becomes of the state of mankind's soul?

We are freed from the bondage of sin and death. (Romans 5, 6, 8)

If it was the loss of mankind's soul that Jesus paid the price for, than, are all souls saved?

Yes. All souls can be saved, but it is up to each person whether they wish to accept the gift of Salvation. Christ's atonement was for all people, not just for a select few.

If the spirit/soul of mankind was saved, than why not the flesh as well?

The flesh was also saved. If the soul of mankind was saved, but not his flesh as well, what sort of salvation would that be? That would be an incomplete salvation. Mankind was created to be body and soul. If our spirit is saved, yet not our body, then we cannot be as God intended us to be.

Mankind's spirit/soul is saved and lives on after the death of the flesh......does it mean that the flesh is left to suffer the consequences for whatever trespasses we commit?

Both the body and the soul suffer, because they were never meant to be divided.

Is that what it means by what the bible says, "The wages of sin is death"?

Yes. We sin, therefore we die, and this affects both the spirit and the body.

Does it also mean that.... Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap?

Sort of, but there's more to it than that. We also have to remember the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25; we will be judged by our works. (Revelation 20:12) This does not in any way negate the salvation that Christ offers us through His death and Resurrection. It rather means that our works measure the extent to which we accept or reject Christ's gift of salvation and His teachings. Remember the metaphor of Jesus being the True Vine, and we the branches? (John 15:1-17)

So, in summary......is this what I understand to be the state of my life: Born innocent, condemned by my own intellect via my judgments, my soul saved by God, via His Son, but responsible for my own actions and accountable for them with consequences? And if, that is my understanding, I am assured, by God via His Son, that my soul is secured but not my body which is, subject to consequences and death

Both your soul and your body are secured; hence the fact that our bodies will be resurrected on the Last Day and be made glorious and incorruptible, as Jesus' body was made after His Resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15)

 

[12jtartar]

look3467,
You have asked so many questions about salvation, which is a branch of Christian study, called Soteriology, so let me explain from the start.
God created Adam and told him not to eat of one tree in the middle of the garden of Eden, that if he did he would surely die, Genesis 2:17. Since there was many trees and other things he could eat, this was a very small thing for God to tell Adam, but it was a way to show God that he truly wanted to obey Him. Eve, Adam's wife ate from the tree and gave some to Adam, and he are also, probably because he could not bear to live without Eve, Genesis 3:6. Both Adam and Eve then became sinners, not only disobedient, but showed God that they did not want to obey Him, but wanted to listen to the Devil instead.
God then stated the first prophecy recorded in the Bible, Genesis 3:15, which had to do with the coming of the Messiah, which was Jesus, and how Jesus would destroy Satan and Satan would bruise Jesus on the heel.
God did not want all of Adam's offspring to die forever, so God immediately formed a way for Adam's offspring to get back into God's love. God would send His son to earth, to give his life as a ransom sacrifice for all people who would accept Jesus sacrifice.
In Theology, this is called, Covenant Theology, or Federal Theology, which tells that by accepting Jesus' ransom sacrifice and following in his footsteps, any person could receive the same blessings that were to come to Adam.
God put Adam and Eve on earth to multiply and fill the earth with offspring, and have in subjection all animals, Genesis 1:26-28. God made the earth for men to live on, forever, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29, 115:16. Contrary to the teaching of most religions, heaven was never promised to mankind, for there was no way for men to go to heaven. The only way they could die was to disobey God, and that would bring death, a returning to the ground as dust, Genesis 3:17-19. After Jesus came to earth, which was six months after John the Baptist, and gave his life for man, the way was opened for some of mankind to go to heaven, Matthew 11:12,13, Hebrews 9:8. When the curtain or veil was ripped from top to bottom, at Jesus' death, the way was opened to heaven for a relatively small number of men to go to heaven to be Kings and Priests over the earth and it's inhabitants, both the ones resurrected and the ones who will through the Great Tribulation, Luke 12:32, Revelation 5:9,10, 14:1-5, 20:4-6. Revelation 7:4 mentions a group of 144,000 who are sealed, these ones are the Little Flock mentioned at Luke 12:32. The ones that will live on earth will be the ones that live through the Great Tribulation, Revelation 7:14, and the ones resurrected back to earth from the graves, John 5:28,29.
The thousand years mentioned at Revelation 20:2-4, will be the Judgment Day, and all who live through that day will be subject to a final testing when Satan is released out of the Abyss, then they will be granted Eternal life, having the same blessings that Adam and Eve would have received if they had not sinned against God. God wants all to live, but all who want to live MUST accept that Jesus died for them and then follow Jesus' footsteps as closely as possible, 1Peter 2:21. We are very close to the time that Jesus will return to earth. When he returns, he will judge all who are alive at that time, to be worthy to live into the Judgement Day or be destroyed, Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[look3467]

Shiranui117

Jesus didn't pay a penalty to God as if He was taking our place. Rather, He became one of us and made His offering of Himself with us.

The only way God Himself could save His creation was to become as one of His creatures (Man), substitute Himself for all of His creation, pay the price for the consequences of His creation and thus: save it.
Only He, as a man, could meet His own righteous requirements and pay the price Himself. Had He not done so......well, this existence, though temporary, would be all that would be and nothing else after.

Yes. All souls can be saved, but it is up to each person whether they wish to accept the gift of Salvation. Christ's atonement was for all people, not just for a select few.

You are absolutely right by me. All saved and not one lost. (Speaking spirituality wise) Mankind can acknowledge its salvation while yet alive in the flesh...to its blessing. But if not, well....that's where the loss of the joy of salvation is.

The flesh was also saved. If the soul of mankind was saved, but not his flesh as well, what sort of salvation would that be? That would be an incomplete salvation. Mankind was created to be body and soul. If our spirit is saved, yet not our body, then we cannot be as God intended us to be.

Before you were born, you were not an individual, not a spirit, you were absolutely.... none existent. But because you were born in the flesh, you were born with the spirit of Adam....with a soul, an individual, with a name , a personality and character.
It is now who you are inside and not what is on the outside. I mean....you could be born into any race in the kingdom of man and still be who you are.
God saved your soul so your soul, you, will live on for ever with God. But your body will go back to the earth. The body was the vehicale for the creation of your soul.

Both the body and the soul suffer, because they were never meant to be divided.

You are right there to. They both suffer. The difference between the two, is that one can be alive or dead while yet in the flesh. If dead while in the flesh both suffer. If alive while in the flesh, only the body suffers because your spirit is comforted by God.
Being alive in the flesh means being born again....of the spirit of God and not of Adam.

Yes. We sin, therefore we die, and this affects both the spirit and the body.

If, God met the requirements to make you sinless in His eyes, then by no means can you be found guilty of sin. Otherwise, why crucify Jesus over and over again? One time and for all time, the sin question is groundless when speaking about salvation.
But when speaking in the natural flesh, payment for trespasses is required. When your body dies, it is over for sin.

Sort of, but there's more to it than that. We also have to remember the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25; we will be judged by our works. (Revelation 20:12) This does not in any way negate the salvation that Christ offers us through His death and Resurrection. It rather means that our works measure the extent to which we accept or reject Christ's gift of salvation and His teachings. Remember the metaphor of Jesus being the True Vine, and we the branches? (John 15:1-17)

Clarification between the works of Christ and that of our own is where the answer lies as to what works is being considered. In the works of Christ.....Salvation for us. In our works, blessings or cursing for our good or evil works.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shiranui117]

The only way God Himself could save His creation was to become as one of His creatures (Man), substitute Himself for all of His creation, pay the price for the consequences of His creation and thus: save it.
Only He, as a man, could meet His own righteous requirements and pay the price Himself. Had He not done so......well, this existence, though temporary, would be all that would be and nothing else after.

I personally reject the idea of Substitutionary Atonement (i.e. Jesus takes our place in receiving God's punishment or making amends to God for our sins). Rather, I accept the much older ideas of Christus Victor, Recapitulation Theory, Ransom Theory, and to some extent, Satisfactionary Atonement. I believe that Jesus offered Himself to the Father to make amends for our sins, not instead of us, but with us.

You are absolutely right by me. All saved and not one lost. (Speaking spirituality wise) Mankind can acknowledge its salvation while yet alive in the flesh...to its blessing. But if not, well....that's where the loss of the joy of salvation is.

No disagreement here.

Before you were born, you were not an individual, not a spirit, you were absolutely.... none existent. But because you were born in the flesh, you were born with the spirit of Adam....with a soul, an individual, with a name , a personality and character.
It is now who you are inside and not what is on the outside. I mean....you could be born into any race in the kingdom of man and still be who you are.
God saved your soul so your soul, you, will live on for ever with God. But your body will go back to the earth. The body was the vehicale for the creation of your soul.

You are right there to. They both suffer. The difference between the two, is that one can be alive or dead while yet in the flesh. If dead while in the flesh both suffer. If alive while in the flesh, only the body suffers because your spirit is comforted by God.
Being alive in the flesh means being born again....of the spirit of God and not of Adam.

So the body is doomed? Do you believe that Jesus taking on human flesh did not redeem our bodies in the same way that Jesus taking on a human soul and a human mind redeemed our souls and minds? The punishments pronounced against mankind at the Fall were very much bodily--we suffer and toil for our food (i.e. we suffer hunger and fatigue), childbirth will be painful, the serpent will bruise us (we suffer from illness and injury), and we will all die (for dust we are, and to dust we shall return). Will these bodily consequences not be reversed in the same way that our soul's bondage to sin and death (i.e. the spiritual consequences of our sins) be reversed?

If, God met the requirements to make you sinless in His eyes, then by no means can you be found guilty of sin. Otherwise, why crucify Jesus over and over again? One time and for all time, the sin question is groundless when speaking about salvation.
But when speaking in the natural flesh, payment for trespasses is required. When your body dies, it is over for sin.

I don't believe that God makes us sinless merely in His eyes, as if He was covering His eyes to our sinfulness. Rather, I believe that we are really and truly cleansed from sin by Jesus' offering of Himself, much like how (in my super shoddy understanding of the Mosaic Law) sin offerings transferred the sin from the person making the offering, to the animal being sacrificed as the offering; in other words, the sin is being completely taken away from the person, and there is now no sin that separates the offerer from God.

Clarification between the works of Christ and that of our own is where the answer lies as to what works is being considered. In the works of Christ.....Salvation for us. In our works, blessings or cursing for our good or evil works.

Blessings, AJ

Agreed.

 

[look3467]

I personally reject the idea of Substitutionary Atonement (i.e. Jesus takes our place in receiving God's punishment or making amends to God for our sins). Rather, I accept the much older ideas of Christus Victor, Recapitulation Theory, Ransom Theory, and to some extent, Satisfactionary Atonement. I believe that Jesus offered Himself to the Father to make amends for our sins, not instead of us, but with us.

The Recapitulation Theory of Atonement

"sees the atonement of Christ as reversing the course of mankind from disobedience to obedience. It believes that Christ’s life recapitulated all the stages of human life and in doing so reversed the course of disobedience initiated by Adam."^ [1]^
Theopedia
An encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity.

..."reversing the course of mankind from disobedience to obedience"....
Let's look at the two options given to mankind.
1. Disobedience...."
Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners....
That, in my opinion, based on the condition that we were made in the image of God, became independent gods, lower case g.
Independence, separates us from God, equals death by separation.
Death..... was the consequence that could not be avoided in the creation process.
Thus.......disobedience.
All mankind fell under the sentence of death....regardless of any righteousness of our own.
The only salvation then, for mankind was not begotten by mankind, but by the only begotten Son of God.

Enter:..... so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Obedience...
Because our own righteousness, to whatever degree it could attain, was still insufficient to meet the requirement for annulment of the death penalty.
If we are to be made righteous, sinless and worthy to enter the kingdom of God forever, we need have to rely in the righteous works of the Son of God.
And, if we do that, we find rest from our own works, and whatever works we do, do, be it the righteous type, is to our own blessings and rewards.

No further work needed, but trust, reliance and faith in the Son of Gods works is all that is required.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

God created Adam and told him not to eat of one tree in the middle of the garden of Eden, that if he did he would surely die..

.12jtartar
I believe that it was not a matter of disobedience i.e. eating of the fruit of the tree, but rather the ability to intelligently make choices.
Intelligence, then is to be as gods i.e ..."become as one of us"..therefore, born into a world of lusts.
Lusting then makes the world our master and separates us from God.
Death, then is the resultant.

The only way they could die was to disobey God, and that would bring death

Mankind was already dead from its creation, requiring the act of a redeeming work by the Creator Himself.

Mankind needs a "re-birth". , from a death state to a live state.

Jesus is the live state of mankind, should we enter there in.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Deeje]

Thoughts to ponder.

Let's see....

If it was mankind's fault to have been condemned, via the expulsion from the garden, why then did Jesus have to pay the price?

God's law was "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life"...so the law demanded equivalency to satisfy justice. (Ex 21:23, 24; Deut 19:21)

What Adam lost was his own perfect life, forfeited through one act of disobedience. He paid with his own life for that. But from him came offspring who inherited a defect called sin, through no fault on their part. What Adam lost for his children was also perfect life....so who would pay for that? No human was now perfect, so a perfect life came willingly and voluntarily from heaven in the person of Jesus Christ. His one sacrifice covered the lives of those who came from Adam and who appreciated what he did and followed his teachings. (Rom 5:18, 19)

If Jesus paid the price, what then becomes of the state of mankind's soul?

Since the soul is man himself, the soul dies when the person stops breathing. (Ezek 18:4) The soul then goes into the grave to await the coming resurrection. (Eccl 9:5, 10) There is no consciousness in death.

If it was the loss of mankind's soul that Jesus paid the price for, than, are all souls saved?

NO. (Matt 20:28) Only those who choose to follow Jesus' commands will be saved.But the deceiver is in the world, leading "many" astray.
These "many" will confidently approach Jesus on judgment day only to find out that he has never known them. (Matt 7:21-23) He does not recognize them as his own.

If the spirit/soul of mankind was saved, than why not the flesh as well?

It isn't the spirit/soul that is saved because there is no spirit/soul that survives death. The "soul" is the whole living, breathing person...the "spirit" is the breath that keeps him alive. When the last breath leaves the body, the soul ceases to function and has no more thoughts. (Psalm 146:4)
A return to life was promised in the Bible by resurrection, (a return to the human life of the person) not by the flitting off of some shadowy part of man.The spirits that exist are NOT the spirits of the dead.

Mankind's spirit/soul is saved and lives on after the death of the flesh......does it mean that the flesh is left to suffer the consequences for whatever trespasses we commit?

No, because there is nothing that lives on after death. Show me where it says so in the Bible. There is no heaven or hell...just life or death. Simple.

Is that what it means by what the bible says, "The wages of sin is death"?

Wages are the payment for something. Sin was introduced into the world by our father Adam. (Rom 5:12) It spread to the entire human race, and as a natural consequence of sin...we all die.

Does it also mean that.... Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap?

Can you sow a garden bed with carrots and harvest cucumbers? Can you break the law which carries a penalty and not expect that penalty to be carried out? Seems simple enough logic to me.

So, in summary......is this what I understand to be the state of my life:

Born innocent.....NO!....no one is born innocent. We have inherited sin which begins at conception. (Psalm 51:5)

condemned by my own intellect via my judgments....Yes. Because God has told us all in advance what he expects us to do and not to do. You reap what you sow. You can't break the law with impunity.There are always consequences to every decision....good or bad.

my soul saved by God, via His Son...it can be, but only if you follow the guidebook that God has provided for all humans. It is his instruction manual....trouble is, free will makes people want to follow their own will.
Your soul is your life. You can preserve your own life if you follow the teachings of God's son...all of them, not just the convenient ones.

but responsible for my own actions and accountable for them with consequences? Why would you expect any different?

And if, that is my understanding, I am assured, by God via His Son, that my soul is secured but not my body which is, subject to consequences and death.

Your soul can be restored to life, just like others were in the Bible.....where did they come back to....and where did they come back from?
Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him back to life? (John 11:11-14) Was he snatched away from heaven? What was the point of that? If he had gone to his reward, why was Jesus taking it off him? How was that a good thing. Where did Jesus say he was?

Pick any point you like and lets discuss it.

Have I picked enough points

 

[look3467]

God's law was "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life"...so the law demanded equivalency to satisfy justice. (Ex 21:23, 24; Deut 19:21)

What Adam lost was his own perfect life, forfeited through one act of disobedience. He paid with his own life for that. But from him came offspring who inherited a defect called sin, through no fault on their part. What Adam lost for his children was also perfect life....so who would pay for that? No human was now perfect, so a perfect life came willingly and voluntarily from heaven in the person of Jesus Christ. His one sacrifice covered the lives of those who came from Adam and who appreciated what he did and followed his teachings. (Rom 5:18, 19)

Deeje, "Gods law ....was" is past tense up to the day of the cross an "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth ans life for life". Law was and Grace now is.
If you stop and think for a moment, the making of ADAM, an intelligent soul, means that he was made after God or in the image of God.
It there said any thing about animals made after the image of God? No, and that is because Adam was, as the bible says, in Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,
There was no disobedience per-say, but rather an independent soul, apart from who God is. That set Adam to be separate from God if, Adam was to be his own man.
That separation is told in the bible as story of eating an apple in disobedience. Cast out and realized separation from God as a truth, that an individual earthly man cannot be obedient being placed in a world of lust.
That is the issue that plagued all of Adams offspring and not dissonance.

That was the first fleshly Adam. The second Adam , though of the same earthly body, was not of the same spirit of the first Adam but of the Spirit of God.
That means that God in the flesh can not sin because He is God, in all perfection, power and might.
Only God could take the penalty of the law away via grace and grant universal salvation upon all mankind.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Since the soul is man himself, the soul dies when the person stops breathing. (Ezek 18:4) The soul then goes into the grave to await the coming resurrection. (Eccl 9:5, 10) There is no consciousness in death.

"A living soul" means? Quoting...http://www.biblecodeintro.com/intro9.html...44 It is sown a physical body (literally in Greek - a soulical body) [], it is raised up a spiritual [] body. If there is a physical/soulical body, there is also a spiritual one.
45 It is even so written: The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15).

Death of the body has no spirit, thus no conscience. The breath of the body therefore, is.....the soul that has been redeemed by the second Adam...."a life giving spirit".

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

No, because there is nothing that lives on after death. Show me where it says so in the Bible. There is no heaven or hell...just life or death. Simple.

Rev_22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

"Water of life"? Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

..."whosoever drinketh"...is an active statement, as in now and not a future tense.

If you drink it now, the promise binds you to everlasting life.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, "Gods law ....was" is past tense up to the day of the cross an "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth ans life for life". Law was and Grace now is.

You know I have come to abhor that word .....not the meaning of it, but the way some people excuse themselves by implying that "grace" is a license to sin. The law was indeed nailed to the execution stake of the Christ, but the principles of the law still apply. Grace does not cover willful and deliberate unrepentant sin.

If you stop and think for a moment, the making of ADAM, an intelligent soul, means that he was made after God or in the image of God.
It there said any thing about animals made after the image of God? No, and that is because Adam was, as the bible says, in Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,

When did he say this and what was it in reference to? It was in possessing the knowledge of good and evil that Adam had become like God, but not in a good way.

There was no disobedience per-say, but rather an independent soul, apart from who God is. That set Adam to be separate from God if, Adam was to be his own man.
That separation is told in the bible as story of eating an apple in disobedience. Cast out and realized separation from God as a truth, that an individual earthly man cannot be obedient being placed in a world of lust.
That is the issue that plagued all of Adams offspring and not dissonance.

Are you Mormon by any chance? They seem to be the only ones who make Adam into a hero and his disobedience into some kind of honorable sacrifice.

There was no apple. The fruit is not identified because the variety was of no consequence. The tree was God's property and he had a right to place it off limits to Adam and his wife who were free moral agents, placed in a perfect world where there was no want and no sin. The one thing that God did not want Adam to be was independent. He needed him to be compliant...obedient. It is all God has ever asked of us.

Jeremiah wrote at Jer 10:23:
"I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

If it does "not belong to man to direct his own steps", then he was designed to rely on God to do that for him. Adam failed in that respect and relied on himself, thereby sentencing not only himself to death, but all of his children. These are the ones Jesus came to redeem.

Rom 5:12
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned"

Rom 5:18, 19:
"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous".

There is the equivalency.

That was the first fleshly Adam. The second Adam , though of the same earthly body, was not of the same spirit of the first Adam but of the Spirit of God.
That means that God in the flesh can not sin because He is God, in all perfection, power and might.
Only God could take the penalty of the law away via grace and grant universal salvation upon all mankind.

Sorry I cannot accept that because the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God incarnate.
The "one person" who offered that "one act of justification" did not have to be God in order to fulfill God's perfect law and his justice....all he had to be was sinless...the equivalent of Adam. Jesus came from heaven as God's perfect son and volunteered to take on the mission....even though he knew in advance that it would end in a agonizing death.

Adam made a choice to sin....Jesus, the only other perfect man to walk the earth, made a choice NOT to. If Jesus was God, then he did not die, since God is immortal. Can mere humans kill God?

The perfect son of God was tempted by the devil...do you seriously think that a fallen angel was going to try to make God disobedient to himself?

Jesus was not God but a servant of God...his most trusted son. The Bible calls Jesus God's holy servant. (Acts 4:30) God is a servant to no one.

 

[look3467]

Born innocent.....NO!....no one is born innocent. We have inherited sin which begins at conception. (Psalm 51:5)
Is a new born capable of sinning? If a baby dies at birth, is the baby innocent?

condemned by my own intellect via my judgments....Yes. Because God has told us all in advance what he expects us to do and not to do. You reap what you sow. You can't break the law with impunity.There are always consequences to every decision....good or bad.
Agreed.

my soul saved by God, via His Son...it can be, but only if you follow the guidebook that God has provided for all humans. It is his instruction manual....trouble is, free will makes people want to follow their own will.
Your soul is your life. You can preserve your own life if you follow the teachings of God's son...all of them, not just the convenient ones.

Grace is granted as a free gift. Someone has given you a gift at one time or an other right? So tell me, did you have to work for it?

but responsible for my own actions and accountable for them with consequences? Why would you expect any different?

I don't expect any difference , but we have to acknowledge whose actions are considered worthy of salvation. Ours or Jesus'?

When we can establish that, then we can understand the consequences for our own actions.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

You know I have come to abhor that word .....not the meaning of it, but the way some people excuse themselves by implying that "grace" is a license to sin. The law was indeed nailed to the execution stake of the Christ, but the principles of the law still apply. Grace does not cover willful and deliberate unrepentant sin.

I understand what you mean. But because we can not meet the letter of the law on our own, we have to meet the letter of the law through Christ. That is being under grace.
The bible states that our works are as filthy rags. So what good works you hope to accomplish can not earn you salvation. It can only earn you blessings.
Choosing to obey, to be obedient, out of love for God is preferred, rather than having to, in order to gain salvation, which is a lost cause.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Deeje]

"A living soul" means? Quoting...http://www.biblecodeintro.com/intro9.html...44 It is sown a physical body (literally in Greek - a soulical body) [], it is raised up a spiritual [] body. If there is a physical/soulical body, there is also a spiritual one.
45 It is even so written: The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15).

This is not speaking about the soul (your link did not work btw.) It is speaking about the resurrection.....something quite different to the teaching that the soul is immortal and floats off at death. The soul is the living, breathing creature, both man and animals are called souls. We die the same death (Eccl 3:19, 20)
We go back to the dust as Adam did. God mentioned nothing about an afterlife to Adam.

What Paul was talking about was the resurrection of a spiritual body when Christ came back to take his "brothers" home. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one was resurrected until his return. (1 Thess 4:13-17) All were to "sleep in death" until that time.

Death of the body has no spirit, thus no conscience. The breath of the body therefore, is.....the soul that has been redeemed by the second Adam...."a life giving spirit".

No, I am sorry that is not what the scriptures teach at all. The soul cannot exist without a body and a body cannot be alive without the spirit (breath). Spirit cannot exist without the lungs.
Human consciousness cannot exist without a brain. The Bible's formula for life is simple.

Body + breath (spirit) = a soul.

 

[look3467]

When did he say this and what was it in reference to? It was in possessing the knowledge of good and evil that Adam had become like God, but not in a good way.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here we have the point where God has to indicate separation between Himself and Adam. Taking away of the tree of life (Symbolic meaning) is meaning that separation begun and that the tree of life was to be re-introduced at a later time leaving mankind on its own until Jesus would come.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Deeje]

Rev_22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

"Water of life"? Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

..."whosoever drinketh"...is an active statement, as in now and not a future tense.

If you drink it now, the promise binds you to everlasting life.

Sorry, but my other pet hate is old translations that do not use the English I speak.

I understand what you mean. But because we can not meet the letter of the law on our own, we have to meet the letter of the law through Christ. That is being under grace.
The bible states that our works are as filthy rags. So what good works you hope to accomplish can not earn you salvation. It can only earn you blessings.
Choosing to obey, to be obedient, out of love for God is preferred, rather than having to, in order to gain salvation, which is a lost cause.

Indeed, we cannot earn salvation, but neither can we sit back and do nothing. James said it well I think....

James 2:14-26:
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?...... So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.
 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”  You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.  But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?  Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?  You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works....You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.....Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Its not a case of either/or but both being necessary to qualify for everlasting life. You can't have one without the other.

 

[look3467]

Are you Mormon by any chance? They seem to be the only ones who make Adam into a hero and his disobedience into some kind of honorable sacrifice.

Read my profile.

There was no apple. The fruit is not identified because the variety was of no consequence. The tree was God's property and he had a right to place it off limits to Adam and his wife who were free moral agents, placed in a perfect world where there was no want and no sin. The one thing that God did not want Adam to be was independent. He needed him to be compliant...obedient. It is all God has ever asked of us.

"Free and moral agents" which means independent? Or not free and as a robot without freedom not being able to exercise moral values?

Again, compliant for the redemption of ones soul could not be done, but compliant for blessings....yes.

Blessings, AJ