Whose fault is it anyway?

[URAVIP2ME]

True, but in words like mountains, beasts, clouds, fire, pit, waters, moon turned to blood, hills, etc.
Translating them into English may not mean what was meant for those code words to con vie. Which, in my opinion, the meanings are spiritually discerned, which begs the argument...how serious is the study in Gods word that God would take notice of our hearts intent to know Him better.
Check this verse out: Pro_25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Are we not .....
Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Blessings, AJ

..and blessings in return to you AJ.

Often by both context and setting words like mountains, etc. can give us the understanding of literal or figurative meanings.

The ' us ' of Revelation 1:6 included John who had a heavenly calling.
Those called to heaven - Luke 22:28-30 - have a first or earlier Resurrection - Revelation 20:6, and they serve people on earth as kings and priests - Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 2:10
Serving mankind living on earth.
As kings taking care of governmental responsibilities for people on earth.
As priests taking care of spiritual duties toward people alive on earth.

All who died before Jesus died - Acts of the Apostles 2:34; Matthew 11:11 - are Not called to heaven including those of Hebrews chapter 11. - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
They will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth starting with Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth.
Plus, please notice at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - the living humble ' sheep'-like people alive on earth are Not called to heaven.
They are Not the ' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40.
The righteous ' sheep ' can remain alive on earth, and continue living on earth, right into the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth.
Jesus promised most people life on earth - Matthew 5:5.
Living forever on earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall. - Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29; Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[look3467]

Often by both context and setting words like mountains, etc. can give us the understanding of literal or figurative meanings.

As well as the 1000 year reign. Is it literal or figurative? Psa_90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

"As yesterday past" = one day? "As a watch in the night" = a day is a 24 hour day.
That is very significant because if we multiply 7 days by one day (a day as a thousand years) we're looking at each day being a 1000 years each.
A day, therefore is, a 24 hour day.
Does that not co-inside with the 7 day creation story?

Point 1. The bible states that God the Father's Creation took 7 days. Gen_2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
It also states that Point 2. Jesus recreated it all in one day. ..."a root of Jesse"...Rom_15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Isa_11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Day of Crucifixion Being Jesus The cross Enter into His rest
"There shall be a root of Jesse - There shall be a sprout, shoot, or scion of the ancient and decayed family of Jesse; see the note at Isa_5:1. Chaldee, ‘There shall be a son of the sons of Jesse.’ The word “root” here - שׁרשׁ shoresh - is evidently used in the sense of a root that, is alive when the tree is dead; a root that sends up a shoot or sprout; and is thus applied to him who should proceed from the ancient and decayed family of Jesse; see Isa_53:2. Thus in Rev_5:5, the Messiah is called ‘the” root” of David,’ and in Rev_22:16, ‘the root and the offspring of David".’>>>>Albert Barnes..Notes on the Bible

There are two distinct creations in the whole of Gods Kingdom.
1st. The Fathers creation which was marred in the making. (Physical Creation, 7 days)
2nd. The Sons re-creation which was the perfect vessel. (Spiritual Re-Creation, one day)

To understand the distinction between the two, The Fathers Creation and the Son's Re-Creation one must see the purpose in it.
The Fathers Creation was "lost" in the creative process. See Romans 9:20. Marred. Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
The Son's recreation was redemptive in nature (spiritual) and forever. (..."seemed good to the potter to make it"...)

Jesus was on trial for the redemption of the world in "that day". (Jesus' 1000 year reign, means that Jesus covered all 7 days of the Fathers Creation in His redemptive work in one day)
The Book of Revelation in the first verse it details His battle: ..." Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ"...

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, the 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth is a literal one-thousand years - Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 20:4-6
When Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth is finished, then Satan is released from the abyss - Revelation 20:7-9
Also, after the end of Jesus' millennial reign, Jesus hands back God's kingdom government to God - 1 Corinthians 15:24

 

[12jtartar]

look3467,
Let me start over and I ask you to meditate on exactly what the Bible actually says.
God created Adam and Adam became a living soul, he was not given a soul, he was a soul, Genesis 2:7. Adam and Eve were flesh and blood, and all there offspring were meant to live forever on earth, Psalms 115:15,16, 37:29, Isaiah 45:18.
It was only after Adam sinned against God, Genesis 3:17-19, that God decided to allow a few men from earth to go to heaven, to be co- rulers with Jesus, so no one could say that it was not fair to have spirit creatures rule over the earth, because they do not really know what it is like to be human, Romans 8:17, Luke 12:32, 1Corinthians 15:50 & 51-54. The way was not open for any human to go to heaven until Jesus died, and that opened the way to heaven, Hebrews 9:8, the Most Holy compartment of the tabernacle was to represent heaven itself, and in that case Jesus pictured the veil,or Curtain that ripped from top to bottom at Jesus' death, Matthew 27:50,51, Hebrews 10:19,20, 6:17-20. Consider closely how Matthew put forward this truth, at Matthew 11:12, where he said that FROM John the Baptist UNTIL NOW, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press. Before John the Baptist all men would be resurrected back to this earth, John 5:28,29. No person had the thought of going to heaven until after John the Baptists day, ant at the death of Jesus that way was opened, Hebrews 3:1, Revelation 5:9,10, 14:1-5, 20:4-6. These resurrected to heaven will be ruling over the earth and the billions that will be resurrected, back to earth, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, notice that both righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected on earth, but only the Anointed, The Holy Ones will be resurrected to heaven, as Kings and Priests, Revelation 20:4-6, 5:9,10. This Little Flock that Jesus spoke about, Luke 12:32, will finally be 144,000, as mentioned at Revelation 7:4, 14:1. Compare how this relatively Little Flock is contrasted with the great crowd that no man can number, that will come out of the great tribulation, Revelation 7:9,14. These live through the great tribulation, many more, even billions will be resurrected back to earth during the Thousand Year Judgment Day, which will last during the time that Satan is in the Abyss, Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10, Matthew 11:22-24,12:36.

 

[jeager106]

12jtartar
What a great post.

 

[Wheel08]

If the spirit/soul of mankind was saved, than why not the flesh as well?

Mankind's spirit/soul is saved and lives on after the death of the flesh......does it mean that the flesh is left to suffer the consequences for whatever trespasses we commit?

Peace.

Interesting questions. I have pondered these before very often.

I have come to believe that the mortal flesh is also to be saved in the "here and now".....not in the "hereafter". It is about continually bearing about the dying of the Lord Jesus in our mortal bodies (the keeping of the "daily" sacrifice) so that the life of Jesus might be made manifest (shine) in our mortal (subject to death) flesh. The flesh is indeed to be saved in this earth without "dying and going to heaven" and be resurrected later. Jesus was sent into this world so that we might have life in this world and have it more abundantly.

If Jesus did indeed physically die for us and is truly risen now, then we must have access to the life He is already experiencing in heaven upon this earth. Why should our mortal bodies die if Jesus already died for us? It seems rather redundant to me. We instead "die" to sin by the keeping of the daily sacrifice of the Lord so that His eternal life that He already has (He is alive now) might shine through our mortal flesh. We make the Word flesh in the here and now so that this world may see His glory through us.

2 Corinthians 4:10-11 KJV
(10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Indeed, God is not mocked for if we live after the flesh (behaving in envy, strife, wrath and hatred of one another), then we shall die in our mortal flesh so that our spirits are saved. We reap decay of the flesh and death as the wages of sin is death. We suffer loss....loss of the mortal body....but our spirits are saved. But if we do deaden the deeds of the body (living after the flesh), then we shall live...in the here and now.

If the Spirit of Him dwells in us (by always sowing to the Spirit), then He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also enliven our "mortal" (subject to death....meaning we have not died physically yet) bodies.

Romans 8:9-14 KJV
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Anyway.....just some thoughts to ponder. Thanks.

 

[look3467]

I have come to believe that the mortal flesh is also to be saved in the "here and now".....not in the "hereafter".

If you recall the story of creation where God form a body of clay? Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

... "Man became a living soul"...only while in a body of dust.

What becomes of the body after death? Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The difference is that when God created man as a living soul, the body (flesh) just became a vehicle by which the living soul now has a name, personality and character.

The soul of mankind was lost in the process of creating living souls. The reason is because we were created in "the image of God".
"In the image of God" made us as "as one of us". Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That meant that we became independent from God, as gods of our own lives, to know good and evil. Independent means separation. Free to do as we please.

Enter the curse. A lost estate.

God very well knew what the consequence for His Creation meant and therefore, arranged for the redemption of His lost estate by sacrificing only one body.

The first man Adam and the last man Adam. 1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The first man Adam was imperfect because he was placed in an environment conducive to the flesh's lustful desires. Therefore, coming short of the Glory (perfect state) of God.
The last man Adam was not born of the spirit of the first man Adam, but of the spirit indwelling of God Himself. Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

... "a body hast thou prepared me"...meaning, a body of flesh to house the perfect Spirit of God" WITHOUT THAT BODY, ... "Sacrifice and offering"... won't happen.

That body, the body of Jesus, representing the body of all humanity, was what was sacrificed. That body took the place of ever soul ever born and will be born.

So, I believe the flesh dies as a consequence of its existence in this world, but the soul of that body lives in Christ forever.

Blessing, AJ

 

[Deidre]

I don't necessarily view it as anyone's 'fault,' as much as it is more about God's grace.

 

[look3467]

The word "fault" in this case represents whose responsibility it is. Not to direct or to point out blame, but to show that it was all Gods wonderful handy work.
Our responsibility is to recognize it and appreciate the fact, that being given the ability to become independent, we have been spared the alienation/separation from the Creator because of it.

You can see a picture of just that in my avatar. Notice where God is holding us from? That way, when we fail to grasp, we are assured He will not let us go.

Now, that is something to think about.

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If you recall the story of creation where God form a body of clay? Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
... "Man became a living soul"...only while in a body of dust.
What becomes of the body after death? Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The difference is that when God created man as a living soul, the body (flesh) just became a vehicle by which the living soul now has a name, personality and character.
The soul of mankind was lost in the process of creating living souls. The reason is because we were created in "the image of God".
"In the image of God" made us as "as one of us". Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
That meant that we became independent from God, as gods of our own lives, to know good and evil. Independent means separation. Free to do as we please.
Enter the curse. A lost estate.
God very well knew what the consequence for His Creation meant and therefore, arranged for the redemption of His lost estate by sacrificing only one body.
The first man Adam and the last man Adam. 1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
The first man Adam was imperfect because he was placed in an environment conducive to the flesh's lustful desires. Therefore, coming short of the Glory (perfect state) of God.
The last man Adam was not born of the spirit of the first man Adam, but of the spirit indwelling of God Himself. Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
... "a body hast thou prepared me"...meaning, a body of flesh to house the perfect Spirit of God" WITHOUT THAT BODY, ... "Sacrifice and offering"... won't happen.
That body, the body of Jesus, representing the body of all humanity, was what was sacrificed. That body took the place of ever soul ever born and will be born.
So, I believe the flesh dies as a consequence of its existence in this world, but the soul of that body lives in Christ forever.
Blessing, AJ

At death Adam became a ' dead soul ' or person.
There was No post-mortem life for Adam because the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20. The soul can be destroyed - Acts of the Apostles 3:23
Man's spirit ( Not soul ) returns to God the same way a foreclosed house returns to the owner.
The house does Not move, or go anywhere, but the owner is now in control of it.
Our life's spirit now rests with God for any future life. That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......'
If the dead were alive there would be No need for a resurrection. The living need No resurrection.
We are Not more alive after death, but as Jesus taught we are in an unconscious sleeping state - John 11:11-14. See also Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Those in the tombs ( graves ), which are Not located in heaven, need a resurrection back to life - John 5:28-29
During Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth the majority of mankind will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on earth - Revelation 22:2

 

[Thief]

Thoughts to ponder.

If it was mankind's fault to have been condemned, via the expulsion from the garden, why then did Jesus have to pay the price?

If Jesus paid the price, what then becomes of the state of mankind's soul?

If it was the loss of mankind's soul that Jesus paid the price for, than, are all souls saved?

If the spirit/soul of mankind was saved, than why not the flesh as well?

Mankind's spirit/soul is saved and lives on after the death of the flesh......does it mean that the flesh is left to suffer the consequences for whatever trespasses we commit?

Is that what it means by what the bible says, "The wages of sin is death"?

Does it also mean that.... Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap?

So, in summary......is this what I understand to be the state of my life: Born innocent, condemned by my own intellect via my judgments, my soul saved by God, via His Son, but responsible for my own actions and accountable for them with consequences? And if, that is my understanding, I am assured, by God via His Son, that my soul is secured but not my body which is, subject to consequences and death.

Pick any point you like and lets discuss it.

Blessings, AJ

quickly stated....you will live with God or not.
I think the choice belongs to Him.

 

[look3467]

I don't necessarily view it as anyone's 'fault,' as much as it is more about God's grace.

You nailed it right on the head. That means that our souls are in His hands regardless of what we do if.....that is what grace means.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

quickly stated....you will live with God or not.
I think the choice belongs to Him.

His choice has already been made at the cross. Question is....do you believe it or not?

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

At death Adam became a ' dead soul ' or person.
There was No post-mortem life for Adam because the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20. The soul can be destroyed - Acts of the Apostles 3:23
Man's spirit ( Not soul ) returns to God the same way a foreclosed house returns to the owner.
The house does Not move, or go anywhere, but the owner is now in control of it.
Our life's spirit now rests with God for any future life. That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......'
If the dead were alive there would be No need for a resurrection. The living need No resurrection.
We are Not more alive after death, but as Jesus taught we are in an unconscious sleeping state - John 11:11-14. See also Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Those in the tombs ( graves ), which are Not located in heaven, need a resurrection back to life - John 5:28-29
During Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth the majority of mankind will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on earth - Revelation 22:2

I would rather say that at Adams birth, this paradox of life, is when Adam's lost his soul.
"Born to die" was not only a truth but a reality for having being made in the image of God. (Intelligence wise) save.......the Grace of God.
Now.....the only thing that dies .......is the flesh body. The soul is saved by Grace as a free gift from God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would rather say that at Adams birth, this paradox of life, is when Adam's lost his soul.
"Born to die" was not only a truth but a reality for having being made in the image of God. (Intelligence wise) save.......the Grace of God.
Now.....the only thing that dies .......is the flesh body. The soul is saved by Grace as a free gift from God.
Blessings, AJ

How does one explain the death of the soul according to Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20 ?

How does one explain the destruction of the soul according to Acts of the Apostles 3:23 ?

Since the wicked are to be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7 - and we are given the two (2) choices mentioned at 2 Peter 3:9 to ' repent ' or ' perish ' ( be destroyed )
how would that Not be in harmony with Ezekiel's words and gospel writer Luke's words in Acts.

 

[look3467]

Hi,
Up and until the day Jesus paid the price, all things including the Son's remained the same.
From Adam to Adam, first and second, the third Adam is a free man under grace.

Under the second Adam (Jesus) all things were as it were. Lost! Jesus had to, literally had to, come under the sentence of the penalty of separation (death)
in the case of the first Adams creation and all subsequent generations in order for the Father to grant Grace as a free gift.

Up and until Jesus paid the price, one couldn't be any more dead than dead. ...the soul that sinneth, it shall die"...
If, before Jesus, all souls were dead in spirit to God, how is it that, if we sinned we would die, when we were already dead to start with and in need of saving?

That verse does not apply after Jesus death, burial and Resurrection, because the Father granted Grace to all souls by Jesus thus, the only dead ones are those whose have no knowledge of, or do not accept The Fathers Jesus as their Savior.
Remember who holds the keys to hell and death? [Rev 1:18.]

As for Acts:3:23, the onus for all souls, prior to the death of Jesus, were directed to believe in the Father's Son for their salvation.

Today, and after the Father's Son's resurrection, all souls are granted immunity from eternal non-existence period.

If, we happen to come into the knowledge of the Father's Son's mission and accept His sacrifice for our souls, we will instantly, in spirit become eternal creatures.
Then again, even if we don't come into that knowledge, though saved by grace, we remain in a lost estate until we die. Which afterwards, we will recognize who Jesus really is and be accepted into His kingdom.

Note. I don't believe the Creator God created just for the sake of destroying His creation.
Case in point. Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay (first Adam) was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, (the second Adam) as seemed good to the potter to make it.
The first man Adam was a fleshly creation. The second man Adam is a new spiritual creation, a renewal of a dead state of the first.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

His choice has already been made at the cross. Question is....do you believe it or not?

Blessings, AJ

nay.

I believe in freewill.....on His part and our own.

what?...no judgment call?

 

[look3467]

nay.

I believe in freewill.....on His part and our own.

what?...no judgment call?

Judgement call for the soul of humanity was made at the cross.
The "one" judged in our place was Jesus.

The "freewill" call is to us to choose to live life for the good.
Hence, "Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Judgment is upon the flesh. "For the wages of sin is death." Blessings or cursings is........our choice.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

Judgement call for the soul of humanity was made at the cross.
The "one" judged in our place was Jesus.

The "freewill" call is to us to choose to live life for the good.
Hence, "Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Judgment is upon the flesh. "For the wages of sin is death." Blessings or cursings is........our choice.

Blessings, AJ

I see a misconception.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

for every deed there is return

we were never meant to live in flesh forever.
God is Spirit. the sons of God are Spirit.

 

[look3467]

I see a misconception.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

for every deed there is return

we were never meant to live in flesh forever.
God is Spirit. the sons of God are Spirit.

What you see as a misconception I see it from a different view.
My view is from the side of good. To give is better than to receive.

We are in an arena, (world) a playing field, if you will, of lust for the flesh.
What ever the eyes can see, feel, taste,hear and smell are all conducive towards lust.

Our spirit is the only source of intelligent management of all five senses, be it we allow it to rule.

And true, we are sons of God. But not all sons behave as such.

Blessings, AJ