Whose fault is it anyway?

[look3467]

What Paul was talking about was the resurrection of a spiritual body when Christ came back to take his "brothers" home. No one went to heaven before Jesus and no one was resurrected until his return. (1 Thess 4:13-17) All were to "sleep in death" until that time.

Verse:
1Pe_3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
"He" is in reference to?

1Pe_4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Preached to the dead? When did Jesus do that?

And what happened there after? Here's what was accomplished that was not that way before:
Isa_45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

Heavenly things are colored in Brass and earthly things are colored in Iron.

Prior to Jesus' death and Resurrection, heavens doors where shut to where no soul could enter. Prisons gates Iron where also shut to where no soul could escape.

Those in hell where liberated and transported to heaven. There no longer exits a prison because Jesus has the keys to it.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Indeed, we cannot earn salvation, but neither can we sit back and do nothing. James said it well I think....

James 2:14-26:
"Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?...... So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.
 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”  You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.  But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?  Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?  You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works....You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.....Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

* "Indeed, we cannot earn salvation"

Its not a case of either/or but both being necessary to qualify for everlasting life. You can't have one without the other.

** "You can't have one without the other"

I see a contradiction between both of your statements as noted.*, **

Truth: We can not earn salvation because it is given in gift.
Truth, what ever we sow we shall reap. Has nothing to do with salvation.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Deeje]

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here we have the point where God has to indicate separation between Himself and Adam. Taking away of the tree of life (Symbolic meaning) is meaning that separation begun and that the tree of life was to be re-introduced at a later time leaving mankind on its own until Jesus would come.

I see that Adam was guilty of disobedience in taking something that did not belong to him. He knew the penalty but chose it anyway. His wife was deceived by satan, but Adam wasn't. His action was willful and deliberate, resulting in what Paul said at Rom 5:12.
The penalty was carried out because on the very day that Adam sinned, he and his wife began to die. They were evicted from their beautiful garden home and forced now to eat "bread" cultivated from cursed ground. Not exactly a reward for doing the right thing I would venture to say.

"The tree of life" was an actual fruit like the TKGE...there is nothing to indicate that it was symbolic.
The trees of life are apparently endowed with the power to make life everlasting. They are not mentioned again until Revelation which says that they are for "the curing of the nations" (Rev 22:1, 2)

I see God's purpose to restore obedient mankind back to original Edenic conditions on earth. Jesus came to restore what Adam lost.

 

[Deeje]

Verse:
1Pe_3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
"He" is in reference to?

The spirits that Jesus preached to were not the spirits of the dead, but the disobedient angels who "forsook their own proper dwelling place" in the days of Noah. (Jude 6; 2 Pet 2:4)

1Pe_4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Preached to the dead? When did Jesus do that?

1 Pet 4:5, 6:
"But these people will render an account to the one who is ready to judge those living and those dead.  In fact, this is why the good news was declared also to the dead, so that although they are judged in the flesh from the standpoint of men, they might live in harmony with the spirit from God’s standpoint."

These were ones who were ‘dead in their trespasses and sins,’ (Eph. 2:1) or who were spiritually dead, before they heard the good news. They are "judged in the flesh". After putting faith in the good news, though, they began to “live” spiritually.

And what happened there after? Here's what was accomplished that was not that way before:
Isa_45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

Heavenly things are colored in Brass and earthly things are colored in Iron.

This is God's words to Cyrus (a king used by God to liberate his people, but not yet born when Isaiah wrote this prophesy about the overthrow of Babylon.) I believe that you are reading way more into those words than is actually intended.

Prior to Jesus' death and Resurrection, heavens doors where shut to where no soul could enter. Prisons gates Iron where also shut to where no soul could escape.

Those in hell where liberated and transported to heaven. There no longer exits a prison because Jesus has the keys to it.

That is a little scrambled IMO. It is true that no human ever went to heaven before Jesus...and it is true that all souls go to hell at death....that is because "hell" (sheol, hades) is simply the common grave of mankind. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Jesus does have "the keys of death and hades" because he is the one who will resurrect all the dead, both those who will rule with him in his kingdom and those who will enjoy their rulership on earth. (John 5:28, 29)

 

[Deeje]

Read my profile.

I did, but there is no denomination. Do you identify with any church or are you amongst the loners?

"Free and moral agents" which means independent? Or not free and as a robot without freedom not being able to exercise moral values?

Free will is not really free because there are consequences to all our decisions. In the garden, the first humans knew the rule...there was only one. If they ate from this one tree that was God's property, they would die.
What do you believe would have happened if they had made a different choice? Free will allowed them to do that, but they were not free of the consequences.

What if the devil had never rebelled?

What if Eve had said no to the devil?

What if Adam had refused his wife's offer?

Again, compliant for the redemption of ones soul could not be done, but compliant for blessings....yes.

Compliance is what God wants from all of his children. As a parent, were you not delighted when your children obeyed you as one wiser than they were? It was an acknowledgement of your position as family head and as one who loved them and had their best interests at heart. You didn't want them to just be scared that you would punish them, did you?

Conversely, how did you feel when they disobeyed you and ended up hurt?
Our heavenly Father is our parent....he gains either joy or sadness from the actions and decisions of his children. (2 Pet 3:9)

 

[look3467]

I did, but there is no denomination. Do you identify with any church or are you amongst the loners?

None denominational. Once a Catholic, Baptist. Studied the beliefs of many religions and sought after, in prayer, a common ground between all of them.
The answer came in one word, which was there all the time, blinded by religious prejudices could not see it,...............LOVE.
If, any religious belief does not exercise Godly love, it is not part of the family of God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

look3467,
You have asked so many questions about salvation, which is a branch of Christian study, called Soteriology, so let me explain from the start.
God created Adam and told him not to eat of one tree in the middle of the garden of Eden, that if he did he would surely die, Genesis 2:17. Since there was many trees and other things he could eat, this was a very small thing for God to tell Adam, but it was a way to show God that he truly wanted to obey Him. Eve, Adam's wife ate from the tree and gave some to Adam, and he are also, probably because he could not bear to live without Eve, Genesis 3:6. Both Adam and Eve then became sinners, not only disobedient, but showed God that they did not want to obey Him, but wanted to listen to the Devil instead.
God then stated the first prophecy recorded in the Bible, Genesis 3:15, which had to do with the coming of the Messiah, which was Jesus, and how Jesus would destroy Satan and Satan would bruise Jesus on the heel.
God did not want all of Adam's offspring to die forever, so God immediately formed a way for Adam's offspring to get back into God's love. God would send His son to earth, to give his life as a ransom sacrifice for all people who would accept Jesus sacrifice.
In Theology, this is called, Covenant Theology, or Federal Theology, which tells that by accepting Jesus' ransom sacrifice and following in his footsteps, any person could receive the same blessings that were to come to Adam.
God put Adam and Eve on earth to multiply and fill the earth with offspring, and have in subjection all animals, Genesis 1:26-28. God made the earth for men to live on, forever, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29, 115:16. Contrary to the teaching of most religions, heaven was never promised to mankind, for there was no way for men to go to heaven. The only way they could die was to disobey God, and that would bring death, a returning to the ground as dust, Genesis 3:17-19. After Jesus came to earth, which was six months after John the Baptist, and gave his life for man, the way was opened for some of mankind to go to heaven, Matthew 11:12,13, Hebrews 9:8. When the curtain or veil was ripped from top to bottom, at Jesus' death, the way was opened to heaven for a relatively small number of men to go to heaven to be Kings and Priests over the earth and it's inhabitants, both the ones resurrected and the ones who will through the Great Tribulation, Luke 12:32, Revelation 5:9,10, 14:1-5, 20:4-6. Revelation 7:4 mentions a group of 144,000 who are sealed, these ones are the Little Flock mentioned at Luke 12:32. The ones that will live on earth will be the ones that live through the Great Tribulation, Revelation 7:14, and the ones resurrected back to earth from the graves, John 5:28,29.
The thousand years mentioned at Revelation 20:2-4, will be the Judgment Day, and all who live through that day will be subject to a final testing when Satan is released out of the Abyss, then they will be granted Eternal life, having the same blessings that Adam and Eve would have received if they had not sinned against God. God wants all to live, but all who want to live MUST accept that Jesus died for them and then follow Jesus' footsteps as closely as possible, 1Peter 2:21. We are very close to the time that Jesus will return to earth. When he returns, he will judge all who are alive at that time, to be worthy to live into the Judgement Day or be destroyed, Matthew 25:31-46.

Hi, 12jtartar
I will address a response tonight.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Deeje]

None denominational. Once a Catholic, Baptist. Studied the beliefs of many religions and sought after, in prayer, a common ground between all of them.

I did this too, being raised in the Church of England (as it was called then) I searched for God in other denominations and other faiths but the common ground I found in all of them was sand......not rock. When genuine love of God and neighbor are missing, God is missing too.

The answer came in one word, which was there all the time, blinded by religious prejudices could not see it,...............LOVE.
If, any religious belief does not exercise Godly love, it is not part of the family of God.

I couldn't agree more. The devil can mimic the tricks, he can promote the slick showmanship designed to part people from their money and whip up emotions without knowledge...but this is not true Christianity...I came to see it all as the weeds of Jesus parable. Counterfeit Christianity is identified by the lack of this dominant quality of God. (John 13:34, 35) Love should be the glue that hold God's people together as a global family, no matter the race, education, background, social standing or financial status....love is the leveller that makes us all true "brothers and sisters" in Christ. Its not something that can be faked.

This is my spiritual family, truly bound together in LOVE.
http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODMusicVideos/pub-jwbon_201512_1_VIDEO

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Thoughts to ponder.
If it was mankind's fault to have been condemned, via the expulsion from the garden, why then did Jesus have to pay the price?
If Jesus paid the price, what then becomes of the state of mankind's soul?
If it was the loss of mankind's soul that Jesus paid the price for, than, are all souls saved?
If the spirit/soul of mankind was saved, than why not the flesh as well?
Mankind's spirit/soul is saved and lives on after the death of the flesh......does it mean that the flesh is left to suffer the consequences for whatever trespasses we commit?
Is that what it means by what the bible says, "The wages of sin is death"?
Does it also mean that.... Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap?
So, in summary......is this what I understand to be the state of my life: Born innocent, condemned by my own intellect via my judgments, my soul saved by God, via His Son, but responsible for my own actions and accountable for them with consequences? And if, that is my understanding, I am assured, by God via His Son, that my soul is secured but not my body which is, subject to consequences and death.
Pick any point you like and lets discuss it.
Blessings, AJ

Yes, it would be good to choose one point at a time:

In Adam we all die. If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can't stop sinning we die.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us.
In short, faithful Jesus, being sinless as Adam started out sinless, can and will resurrect us. - Revelation 1:18; Acts of the Apostles 24:15

Since the soul dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20 - and can be destroyed - Acts of the Apostles 3:23, then, like when Adam died, there is No post-mortem penalty at death. Death is the end.
Death is the end of all life - Ecclesiastes 9:5. Because of Jesus faithful ' death ' that frees or acquits us of sin- Romans 6:7 - Not meaning Now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges No longer stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do Not stick. - Romans 6:23
Because of Jesus us ' sinning souls ' can have a resurrection. Some to heaven- Revelation 20:6, but the majority of mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth.
We are all free to choose to act responsibly toward God. - Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6

 

[look3467]

God created Adam and told him not to eat of one tree in the middle of the garden of Eden, that if he did he would surely die, Genesis 2:17. Since there was many trees and other things he could eat, this was a very small thing for God to tell Adam, but it was a way to show God that he truly wanted to obey Him. Eve, Adam's wife ate from the tree and gave some to Adam, and he are also, probably because he could not bear to live without Eve, Genesis 3:6. Both Adam and Eve then became sinners, not only disobedient, but showed God that they did not want to obey Him, but wanted to listen to the Devil instead.

Hi, 12jtartar
The mere fact that Adam had the intelligent ability to choose, was, in my opinion and belief, was the cause of his separation from God via his independence and not that he was disobedient.
The point of making it look like disobedience is to point out the fact of Adams independent thinking and to demonstrate his ability to choose on his own.

That makes him as "is become as one of us"...Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"As one of us" denotes a god in the flesh. Don't you think? If, that is true then, does it not stand to reason that there, by the creative design, that gods in the flesh have become separated from God due to their own independence?

You could say then, that, that is the curse, a resultant of the creative process and not the disobedience factor.

So, technically, it is no one's fault but rather the fault of being created as a god......in the flesh. ..."as one of us"...

Because of the separation (death) death sentence came to all mankind of which only a God in the flesh could redeem all mankind.

Did you notice in that last sentence the capital "G". That is referring to the, in my opinion, the tree of life as Jesus.

For you see, only God Himself could redeem His Own Creation via a man of the flesh.

Concerning Eve.

..."Adam's wife ate from the tree and gave some to Adam, and he are also, probably because he could not bear to live without Eve"...

If you think about how Adam was created you will see both Adam and Eve in the same person.

Adam is the breath (spirit) of God in the lump of clay right? Guess what the lump of clay represents? Earthly material right?

So, what we have here is the first recorded marriage between two opposites. Heaven and Earth.

Adam from Heaven and Eve the Earth. That creation resulted in the creation of a living soul.

In your mind, which of the two components of Adam is the strongest, his spirit or his flesh"

If, we are in the flesh, we are weak, but if we are in the spirit we are strong, as God is our strength.

After Adam was created, God created a like form but different in the form, was a man with a womb, or female.

Hence, Adam...a male is stronger in stature verses the female weaker in stature. That should be a reminder of God's creative design.

Now, let us not believe that the female spirit is weaker than the males, but that God's spirit (Adam) is equal to both male and female equally.

None is the stronger (Spirit) than the other but both equally capable of growing in faith and strength.

Here's a verse that might help in understanding this.
Gen_5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

I did this too, being raised in the Church of England (as it was called then) I searched for God in other denominations and other faiths but the common ground I found in all of them was sand......not rock. When genuine love of God and neighbor are missing, God is missing too.

That is the our predicament that everyone has to deal with......the exercise of love in our religious and or non religious views and actions.

Why suppose God did not create all things as one, but rather divisions.

In divisions, we have to exercise Godly love towards our neighbor and enemy's.

If, as you see it as "sand" then that is a true statement because, even though we may claim to be believers, our actions in the love department are found wanting.

Sorry, but my other pet hate is old translations that do not use the English I speak.

The beauty in understanding God's views is found in those old translations.

God definitely, liked the use of that old language.

But, of course, God can also be found easily in any form of language, after all, He limits not Himself to anyone thing but is A God of all.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Yes, it would be good to choose one point at a time:

In Adam we all die. If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can't stop sinning we die.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us.
In short, faithful Jesus, being sinless as Adam started out sinless, can and will resurrect us. - Revelation 1:18; Acts of the Apostles 24:15

Since the soul dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20 - and can be destroyed - Acts of the Apostles 3:23, then, like when Adam died, there is No post-mortem penalty at death. Death is the end.
Death is the end of all life - Ecclesiastes 9:5. Because of Jesus faithful ' death ' that frees or acquits us of sin- Romans 6:7 - Not meaning Now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges No longer stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do Not stick. - Romans 6:23
Because of Jesus us ' sinning souls ' can have a resurrection. Some to heaven- Revelation 20:6, but the majority of mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth.
We are all free to choose to act responsibly toward God. - Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6

Hi, URAVIP2ME

Point was to pick your point and discuss it.
I was agreeing with you on all points except for this line: ..."but the majority of mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth"...

My opinion is that we only get one shot at this life. Christ died once and for all time. The only one to be re-incarnated.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Deeje]

That is the our predicament that everyone has to deal with......the exercise of love in our religious and or non religious views and actions.

Why suppose God did not create all things as one, but rather divisions.

In divisions, we have to exercise Godly love towards our neighbor and enemy's.

Jesus said that we should worship only his Father and serve "Him alone" (Luke 4:8)
The apostle Paul in writing to the Corinthians in Jesus' name, said that we "all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought"

Can you see that division does not identify true worshippers...unity does. God did not create the divisions...man did.

If, as you see it as "sand" then that is a true statement because, even though we may claim to be believers, our actions in the love department are found wanting.

How true! When Jesus said..."I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves." he was showing us how to identify his true disciples...not by miracles, not by differences over doctrine, not by emotional talk with no action...but by the genuine love they had for each other and by the love they had for God and their fellow humans.

The beauty in understanding God's views is found in those old translations.

God definitely, liked the use of that old language.

But, of course, God can also be found easily in any form of language, after all, He limits not Himself to anyone thing but is A God of all.

A lot of people are attached to that old language, but we have to remember that the KJV was a translation for its time. The Bible was not written in English.

Language has a way of changing so that expressions once used can now be confusing. This is why modern English translations are important.

Take for example Mark 10:14..."But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." (KJV)

When I have visited cemeteries I have often seen these words inscribed on children's gravestones from early last century when the KJV was the most accepted translation.
This was somehow taken to mean (in the minds of some,) that children had to "suffer" in order to come to Jesus. But that is not what the word "suffer" means at all in that verse.

In the New KJV it is rendered..."But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God."

Another example is Gen 25:29..."And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:" (KJV) "sod pottage"????

In the New KJV..."Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary."

Just these two examples demonstrate why we must be up to date with the way language is used today, so that the meaning can be accurately conveyed and easily understood.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hi, URAVIP2ME
Point was to pick your point and discuss it.
I was agreeing with you on all points except for this line: ..."but the majority of mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth"...
My opinion is that we only get one shot at this life. Christ died once and for all time. The only one to be re-incarnated.
Blessings, AJ

Thank you for your reply ^ above ^ and agree Christ died once for all time - Hebrews 9:28; Hebrews 10:10-12
And the day of death is better than the day of birth - Ecclesiastes 7:1 because at death we have made a name with God.
Those who are part of the resurrection of the 'righteous ones' will have an easier time developing a Christ-like personality - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Since the 'wicked' will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7, then the 'unrighteous ones' will have an easier time then they would otherwise have.

Hebrews 9:28 also mentions Christ ( our High Priest ) as forgiving the sins of many - Matthew 20:28 - appearing a second time Not for the forgiveness of sins ( that's already done ),
but apart from sin, this time unto salvation, or everlasting deliverance, rescue, from sin and enemy death - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8 ( death exists here on earth, Not heaven )
Salvation will first start with living people on earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - when people alive on earth can continue to live on earth right through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 - into the start of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth. When Jesus, as King of God's kingdom government , ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

Was King David just given ' one shot ' since David is still asleep in the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:34; 1 Kings 2:10

Please notice the connection to David becoming a future ' prince ' on earth - Psalms 45:16 ; Ezekiel 34:24; Isaiah 32:1
So, all who died before Jesus died will Not ascend to heaven, but can have a healthy physical resurrection on earth.
Jesus' death opened up the way to heaven for those called to heaven as mentioned at Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10
Please note they do Not serve as ' princes ' but serve with Jesus as kings and priests over earth.

Blessing in return to you AJ
P.S. please notice Jesus will fullfill the blessings God promised to father Abraham at Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18.
Jesus will fulfill God's blessings with the benefits as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 that all of earth's nations will be healed.
So, besides a heavenly hope - Luke 22:28-30, there is also an earthly hope for the majority of mankind.

 

[Deeje]

I hope you don't mind me commenting on your observations here. I can see that you have thought well "outside the box" to come to these conclusions.

The mere fact that Adam had the intelligent ability to choose, was, in my opinion and belief, was the cause of his separation from God via his independence and not that he was disobedient.
The point of making it look like disobedience is to point out the fact of Adams independent thinking and to demonstrate his ability to choose on his own.

Adam had no reason to disobey his God in the only negative command there was in the garden. God had educated Adam before giving him a mate, and thereafter, Adam educated his wife. Neither of them would have thought twice about disobeying the only rule which carried an extreme penalty....(death)....something for which God never designed them. They had eternal prospects on earth dependent upon their obedience to that one command.

It was only when a third party entered the scene and made the fruit look attractive to the woman and inferred that there was no penalty because God had lied to them.
Once the woman partook of the fruit, she was condemned. But just as the devil had planned, she offered the fruit to her husband. Now Adam had choices....would he remain loyal to his God and live or take the same course as his wife and die with her? We know what he chose....but what did that mean for his children?

That makes him as "is become as one of us"...Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"As one of us" denotes a god in the flesh. Don't you think? If, that is true then, does it not stand to reason that there, by the creative design, that gods in the flesh have become separated from God due to their own independence?

When God said that man had "become like one of us"...he said it was because they now 'had a knowledge of evil'.......not that they had become "gods".

You could say then, that, that is the curse, a resultant of the creative process and not the disobedience factor.

It is difficult to see how you can come to this conclusion. It was a simple case of disobedience due to the abuse of free will and God instituting the penalty, which was death...the very opposite of what he designed man to do. Man's initial prospects were to live forever on earth and fill it with his kind, subduing the earth outside the garden until the whole planet was like Eden.

Evicting them from the garden meant that God's original purpose was put on hold whilst he dealt with rebellion, not only in man but more importantly in his family of powerful spirit sons.

So, technically, it is no one's fault but rather the fault of being created as a god......in the flesh. ..."as one of us"...

Man's fall into sin is placed squarely at the feet of Adam. (Rom 5:12)

Because of the separation (death) death sentence came to all mankind of which only a God in the flesh could redeem all mankind.

This is not true. God's law required equivalency, (eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life) so a perfect, sinless life was lost for all of Adam's children.....only an equivalent perfect sinless life could be offered in atonement. ("at-one-ment", which means one for one)
Jesus did not have to be God in order to offer that life...in fact it would have been overkill to the max and actually ludicrous to imagine that God could ever die, let alone be put to death by wicked humans. Jesus is the son of God who became flesh to offer his perfect life to balance the scales of justice and to buy back (redeem) what Adam lost for his children.

Did you notice in that last sentence the capital "G". That is referring to the, in my opinion, the tree of life as Jesus.

There are no capital letters in Greek. Any capital letter is put there by human translators.
There is no reference to Jesus somehow being symbolic "the tree of life" in the garden.

Concerning Eve.

..."Adam's wife ate from the tree and gave some to Adam, and he are also, probably because he could not bear to live without Eve"...

If you think about how Adam was created you will see both Adam and Eve in the same person.

Adam is the breath (spirit) of God in the lump of clay right? Guess what the lump of clay represents? Earthly material right?

Adam was created from the elements of the earth and his wife was created using his DNA.

The "soul" that was Adam lived only when God started him breathing. This is the "spirit" in man...his breath. When breathing stops, the person (soul) dies...(Ezek 18:4; Psalm 146:4)
Nothing in man survives death. Only a resurrection will bring that person (soul) back to life.(John 5:28, 29)

So, what we have here is the first recorded marriage between two opposites. Heaven and Earth.

Adam from Heaven and Eve the Earth. That creation resulted in the creation of a living soul.

How did you come to that conclusion?...certainly not from reading Genesis. It was indeed the first marriage between two human beings who were given instruction about their role in God's purpose. It had nothing to do with heaven and earth.....where will I find that?

In your mind, which of the two components of Adam is the strongest, his spirit or his flesh"

If, we are in the flesh, we are weak, but if we are in the spirit we are strong, as God is our strength.

After Adam was created, God created a like form but different in the form, was a man with a womb, or female.

Hence, Adam...a male is stronger in stature verses the female weaker in stature. That should be a reminder of God's creative design.

Now, let us not believe that the female spirit is weaker than the males, but that God's spirit (Adam) is equal to both male and female equally.

None is the stronger (Spirit) than the other but both equally capable of growing in faith and strength.

This is again a lot of speculation achieved by reading too much into the written word. We can trust the Bible to explain itself without adding our own ideas because they appeal to us.
This is not what Christ taught. We have to be united in the same beliefs as our fellow Christians (1 Cor 1:10) and we have to fellowship with them regularly, according to the scriptures. (Heb 10:24, 25) We cannot worship God in isolation.

Here's a verse that might help in understanding this.
Gen_5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

It is true that the name Adam means "Earthling Man; Mankind; Humankind; from a root meaning “red”.
But when the Bible speaks of Adam and his wife, they are two separate human entities who share DNA and who were told to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" with their offspring. God allowed this in spite of their sinful state.

The "tree of life" in the garden was the means to keep mortal humans from ever dying. This is why God mentioned that they could eat from the tree and "live forever". But no sinful human was going to be able to ever eat from this tree in their now imperfect flesh. God went to a great deal of trouble to make sure that humans never had access to it again. (Gen 3:22-24)

It was never in God's original purpose to take humans to heaven. He designed us for the earth and the earth is designed for us. It was supposed to be our home forever but rebellion as a result of the abuse of free will, saw God put that on hold so that he could provide the solution and get us back to his original plan....to have perfect, obedient human beings who would take care of his earthly creation forever. This what Jesus' sacrifice guarantees.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Deeje, I enjoyed your ^above ^ post. Post #35.
I would like to add a comment about God going to a great deal of trouble to make sure humans ' never' had access to the ' tree of life ' again.
Just want to add the detail saying that is true this side of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth.
Now, please notice the happy ' return ' of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth at Revelation 22:2.
Jesus will fullfill God's promise to father Abraham - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 - that all families and all nations of earth will be blessed.
Blessed with the benefits of the ' healing ' of earth's nations under Christ's millennium-long day of governing over earth - Revelation 22:2; Isaiah 33:24; Also Isaiah chapter 35

Unless I am misunderstanding, Adam did have knowledge of what was wrong (evil ) because God told Adam in advance it was wrong to eat from His tree.
There was Nothing evil about God's no-trespassing Law ( you eat, you die ) rather Adam chose to guide himself in having his particular knowledge of self-determining for himself what was good or bad in his own eyes.
Adam, by breaking God' s Law, set up People Rule as being superior to God Rule. Mankind's history is showing man's sad result - Ecclesiastes 8:9

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, I enjoyed your ^above ^ post. Post #35.
I would like to add a comment about God going to a great deal of trouble to make sure humans ' never' had access to the ' tree of life ' again.
Just want to add the detail saying that is true this side of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over earth.

Since it was already a long post I thought it was better to leave that for another time.

Now, please notice the happy ' return ' of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth at Revelation 22:2.

Not just "a" tree.....but "trees" of life for the curing of the nations! Can't wait!

Unless I am misunderstanding, Adam did have knowledge of what was wrong (evil ) because God told Adam in advance it was wrong to eat from His tree.
There was Nothing evil about God's no-trespassing Law ( you eat, you die ) rather Adam chose to guide himself in having his particular knowledge of self-determining for himself what was good or bad in his own eyes.
Adam, by breaking God' s Law, set up People Rule as being superior to God Rule. Mankind's history is showing man's sad result - Ecclesiastes 8:9

Adam was well educated by his Father and as family head, he educated his wife. He knew the rule....after all, there was only one.

Adam was well acquainted with all the varieties of fruit in the garden and he knew that only one tree was off limits....not because the fruit was poisoned or anything, but because God had claimed that tree as his own. Respect for what God had said was his property, out of all the fruit trees that God had freely given to them, meant that taking that fruit was grossly disrespectful and disobedient. It was grand theft, with a grand penalty.

They did not make a mistake or experience a lapse in judgment due to sin. They chose to exercise their free will in a wrong way and paid the price, not only for themselves, but for all their children as well.

Since there was no other cause of death in existence, only someone really stupid would knowingly violate God's command.

Adam's choice was not because he was deceived like his wife. (1 Tim 2:14) Satan had targeted the man by using his wife as the bait. Adam deliberately chose to be loyal to her rather than to be loyal to his God. Satan has used divided loyalty to divide and conquer ever since. It's his favorite tactic.

Part of any war strategy is to know your enemy....we are at war with the devil.
Paul said that we should be forgiving "so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes."

Fortunately for us, God has educated us about our common enemy, and his evil schemes to get us as far away from true worship as he can.

 

[look3467]

Can you see that division does not identify true worshipers...unity does. God did not create the divisions...man did.

You are correct in stating that unity identifies true worshipers, be it of good or evil designs.

Luk_12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

In the instance that Jesus spoke to His apostles was to encourage, strengthen them against the opposition with the fire that Jesus was going to bring down on them. Holy Spirit.

In this case, if there would not have been opposition, Jesus' message and actions would have been in vain.

You've read where it is said "2Th_2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"..:

It was imperative that the opposition opposed Jesus in every way. The Good that was to come of that was mankind's salvation.

In the story of Adam and Eve, you see opposition from the very get go.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Jesus said that we should worship only his Father and serve "Him alone" (Luke 4:8)
The apostle Paul in writing to the Corinthians in Jesus' name, said that we "all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought"

Can you see that division does not identify true worshippers...unity does. God did not create the divisions...man did.

You are correct that we should worship only his Father and serve "Him alone". Considering that the Jews received their belief structure via Moses, from the Father, and the Ten Commandments and Jesus bringing in a new belief structure could not stand; as both but as one.
Jesus came in opposition to the established structure in which, God the Father hardened their hearts..
Joh_12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Divisions among us all are to be tolerated in, with the love of God, our daily actions.

I mean what gain would there be if there was no opposition?

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Just these two examples demonstrate why we must be up to date with the way language is used today, so that the meaning can be accurately conveyed and easily understood.

True, but in words like mountains, beasts, clouds, fire, pit, waters, moon turned to blood, hills, etc.
Translating them into English may not mean what was meant for those code words to con vie. Which, in my opinion, the meanings are spiritually discerned, which begs the argument...how serious is the study in Gods word that God would take notice of our hearts intent to know Him better.
Check this verse out: Pro_25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Are we not .....
Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Blessings, AJ