Whose 'logic' is it anyway?

[not nom]

Back to the Golden Rule.
Good logic?
Should we anticipate angels....with swords?

those who live by the sword... die at the hands of those who live by the gun

 

[Looncall]

The pharisees said the same thing about the Carpenter.....thank you.

And your stance on belief is no more than denial?
with a continual...'prove it'?

By definition ...faith requires no proving.

But to say I lack logic, that I believe in God?....nay

If faith requires no proving, how is it different from delusion?

It is easy to be deluded. One can be misled by the imperfections of our minds and one can be a victim of a scam. Living in the real world takes work. No wonder so many prefer delusion.

 

[mr black]

If faith requires no proving, how is it different from delusion?

It is easy to be deluded. One can be misled by the imperfections of our minds and one can be a victim of a scam. Living in the real world takes work. No wonder so many prefer delusion.

Well said.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

those who live by the sword... die at the hands of those who live by the gun

Not if we get close enough...

 

[not nom]

Not if we get close enough...

ohhh, surprise hugs!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Will you be able to sin in heaven?

I think the answer to the question "How do we get to heaven?" or "Are we on the path to heaven?" will be more beneficial to us..

If you don't believe there is a heaven, then I don't see how you can get there! :candle:

 

[mr black]

I think the answer to the question "How do we get to heaven?" or "Are we on the path to heaven?" will be more beneficial to us..

If you don't believe there is a heaven, then I don't see how you can get there! :candle:

Question too hard?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Question too hard?

I haven't got all the answers .. do you think that I'm God or something?
What's your point anyway? Are you genuinely interested in my understandings and opinions?
..or are you just waiting to pounce?

 

[not nom]

I haven't got all the answers .. do you think that I'm God or something?
What's your point anyway? Are you genuinely interested in my understandings and opinions?
..or are you just waiting to pounce?

you're kinda pouncing on yourself with stuff like

"Because it's not our final result. A person who freely chooses to worship God isn't a zombie .. they just recognise that it's the truth .. and truth is always superior to falsehood"

^ in other words, "yeah, but no, but yeah, but no". that's like vicky pollard without the funay.

 

[muhammad_isa]

you're kinda pouncing on yourself ..

How so?

 

[Koldo]

So the responsibility of purification is not just on Almighty God, it's dependant on our souls co-operation .. unless of course, He changes the nature of our souls .. makes us into 'zombies'

Enough .. you probably don't agree..

You still haven't defined what is this purification.
You use this term in an extremely vague manner.

However, from the way you use it i see no contradiction between purifying someone who doesn't want to be.

 

[not nom]

How so?

because you say someone who does something voluntarily isn't a zombie, and that people in heaven won't be zombies, and "the truth is superior to falsehood". so, people don't have a choice really, but they're not zombies.

that's like saying this dog is not on a leash, it's just I made something nice out of string, and something nice is always superior to empty air.

and all of that on the backdrop of the quran being very specific about god making that decision, about who is rightly guided and who has been made for hellfire. I've yet to see a muslim actually deal with that. you just make stuff up that flies in the face of the quran.

 

[muhammad_isa]

because you say someone who does something voluntarily isn't a zombie, and that people in heaven won't be zombies, and "the truth is superior to falsehood". so, people don't have a choice really, but they're not zombies.

We do 'have a choice really' .. we can choose to take the path to heaven or we can choose not to. I call that a choice.
Naturally, the path to heaven is more desirable .. just like getting a good education and job is in this life is more desirable.

..and all of that on the backdrop of the quran being very specific about god making that decision, about who is rightly guided and who has been made for hellfire.

I assume you're referring to :-

"Whomsoever God guides, nobody can send astray .. and whomsoever God sends astray, nobody can guide"

You have to see the deeper meaning .. God wouldn't send anybody astray who's conscience is clean .. why would He?
But then, maybe you're one of those who's been "sent astray" , so can't understand ..

 

[mr black]

We do 'have a choice really' .. we can choose to take the path to heaven or we can choose not to. I call that a choice.
Naturally, the path to heaven is more desirable .. just like getting a good education and job is in this life is more desirable.

I assume you're referring to :-

"Whomsoever God guides, nobody can send astray .. and whomsoever God sends astray, nobody can guide"

You have to see the deeper meaning .. God wouldn't send anybody astray who's conscience is clean .. why would He?
But then, maybe you're one of those who's been "sent astray" , so can't understand ..

Let's have the NEW definition of sent astray? How would his conscience become unclean if god is guiding him. If his conscience is unclean then it can only be because god led him astray.

 

[Daviso452]

We do 'have a choice really' .. we can choose to take the path to heaven or we can choose not to. I call that a choice.
Naturally, the path to heaven is more desirable .. just like getting a good education and job is in this life is more desirable.

I assume you're referring to :-

"Whomsoever God guides, nobody can send astray .. and whomsoever God sends astray, nobody can guide"

You have to see the deeper meaning .. God wouldn't send anybody astray who's conscience is clean .. why would He?
But then, maybe you're one of those who's been "sent astray" , so can't understand ..

But to get to heaven, you must give yourself to god, and relinquish your free will to him in order to get into heaven.

But lets make an analogy:
A 3 year old, who can barely speak, is told by a voice of unknown origin to cross. If the baby did that, he would live. Otherwise, he would be shot by an unknown assailant.

We would immediately cross the coals, but i have doubts a baby would. A baby is to us as we are to the supposed "eternity" in heaven. We as adults have our own understanding, but it must be infinitely small compared to those in heaven. So, I feel god would understand if we as humans went the logical route and didn't believe in him.

Same with babies. It is logical not to cross the bed; it burns and hurts, and hurt=bad. Plus, they cannot see the person. They would likely respond to a person standing right next to them. some may cross, but I feel the majority would stay. Why? Because it is reasonable not to. Should they still be punished? No! so why should humanity?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

You have to see the deeper meaning .. God wouldn't send anybody astray who's conscience is clean .. why would He?
But then, maybe you're one of those who's been "sent astray" , so can't understand ..

How can one have an unclean conscience if they haven't already been sent astray by God, hm? Also, since your premise is that if you've been sent astray by God you'll never know, it's probably you who've been sent astray. How would you know?

 

[Thief]

Whose logic is it, anyway?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But to get to heaven, you must give yourself to god, and relinquish your free will to him in order to get into heaven.

Not exactly .. we're all human beings, and God doesn't expect us to starve, be celibate etc.
The middle way is the correct path .. remember God, and "He will remember you!"
ie. save you from your own weaknesses

Sorry, I don't follow your 'analogy'

 

[not nom]

We do 'have a choice really' .. we can choose to take the path to heaven or we can choose not to. I call that a choice.

I know, and I call it made up. which it is, too.

I assume you're referring to :-

yeah well, you know what they say about assumptions. I assume you are making that assumption to make it easier on yourself. you'd rather respond to something you came up with, than with what the quran actually says about it. god said he'd fill hell with humans and djinn, and that's why, that is the CAUSE for not everybody being rightly guided. now you face that aspect of the god you are advertising for, or don't, but don't ******* try to sell me as stupid, I'm not joe schmoe and I don't have patience.

God wouldn't send anybody astray who's conscience is clean

that is circular. being rightly guided and having a clean conscience, that's basically the same. so you're saying "those who are rightly guided are rightly guided", and call that "deeper meaning". that's exactly the kind of stunts I'm so utterly tired of.

and of course, you end with blaming me for your assumptions, and your stupid explanations for something I didn't even say. figures.

but you're right. it's not just that people can't actually deal with what I brought up, they always pull some utter BS in response, I forgot. thanks for the reminder.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How would his conscience become unclean if god is guiding him. If his conscience is unclean then it can only be because god led him astray.

This is not what I was implying!

It's our deeds .. they can send us astray.. ( and also spiritually elevate us )
But how can "a deed" do that? Ah .. our nature, perhaps .. which God has given us..

Again .. if you can't see it, perhaps "God has sent you astray"
ie. something wrong with your deeds / intention / heart