Whose Side Are You On, God's Or That Of Morality?

[sojourner]

Where is morality without God? Nowhere. History and a study of civilizations proves that morals flourished wherever the Catholic Faith was practiced.

The Inquisition, Colonialism and pogroms are excellent examples...

 

[sojourner]

Yeah, well, I thought that's why we were here, to share our opinions.

And where do you think you get legitimate theological constructions, if not from us prophets?

I don’t recognize you as a legitimately sanctioned prophet. We have to work within the system of agreed upon parameters, not our own made up world.

 

[Axe Elf]

I don’t recognize you as a legitimately sanctioned prophet. We have to work within the system of agreed upon parameters, not our own made up world.

Jews don't recognize the Messiah, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, and Mormons don't recognize each other in the liquor store.

 

[sojourner]

And god's decisions rest on a culture's particular mores? REALLY?

Of course! The god is a product of the culture.

And what is the overarching context of the Hebrew culture that convinced god that slavery was alright? Again, you're saying that god makes moral decisions based on a culture's codes and practices rather than on any absolute. What may be an immoral act in one community can be moral in another community. Is that the way god's morality works?

Correct. “Absolute” in this context is a fantasy. The ancient Hebrews certainly saw slavery as an accepted part of life, so God made rules concerning it. We don’t see slavery as an accepted part of life, so God condemns it.

 

[sojourner]

Jews don't recognize the Messiah, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, and Mormons don't recognize each other in the liquor store.

That’s about the size of it.

 

[Jollybear]

Irrelevant, and you know it. Or should.,

Irrelavent? How so? Its near the same verses and tells additional details. Its very relavent. Hows it not?

And six year contracts only applied to Hebrew slaves. Other slaves could be held for life and even passed down to the next generation.

The ones that wer held for life, sold themselves for life. It was a choice. Not a force. This is a contractual issue here. And your not accounting for it.

Nice words of advise to be sure, but in no way do they absolve god of his immoral stance on slavery in general, or on his permissive attitude toward beating slaves. "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

So, you condone breaking contracts then? Contract breakers should not be punished?

Your ridiculous, self serving rephrasing here and absurd logic hasn't gone unnoticed. Try it on someone who doesn't know the English language. Believe me, apologetics isn't your forte.

Lets see. Im making points here that your not refuting. Secondly, i dont agree im being rediculoius at all. Third, i think your being rediculious because you think this statement is a refutation of my point and its not. This statement is nothing but a arbitrary rejection of my point.

Also this word "apologetics" gets flung around way too much by bible bashers and they use it as if it has some kind of magical refutational power to it and IT DONT. Reality check, IT DONT. Refute the actual point made, dont just brush it off.

Have a good day.

Hey, dont get angry at me for pointing out things and making honest points. If you dont like them or accept them, thats your perogative. But, know this, you DID NOT REFUTE THEM. You just brushed it off.

 

[sojourner]

No it's not the only thing retarding self determination, but it certainly plays a large role in it. While it's not the antithesis of thinking for ourselves its the suspension of rational thought I find to be most irksome.

I don’t find that religion necessarily suspends rational thought. For many it does, but that has way more to do with how people apply the religion than the religion itself.

I think religion promotes critical thought, but in the worst way possible. To bob and weave around facts and reality to justify the belief. It's mental gymnastics to the hardcore believer.

You’re talking apologetic. Yes, those can be some gymnastics. But for me (and others), religion provides ways of making meaning that do involve critical thinking in a good way. Again: it has more to do with the person than the religion itself.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You seem to be operating from the perspective that the universe existed in one way, and then along came human beings and started making it better--as if human beings weren't themselves a part of the universe.

Well, that's enough off-topic talk for one thread.

Here's what I originally stated:

If we're to blame for our problems then we are also the best place to look for a solution.

Let's keep this simple and apply the above to slavery (very on-topic, wouldn't you say?). If we have a problem with slavery, and we instituted it, then we're the best source for a "solution" to that problem. That is what I meant. But your reply, wholesale, to my statement was this:

There is no "solution"; the universe is what it is, and as the best of all possible universes, why try to fix what isn't broken?

What you basically said in response to my statement, when used in the context of slavery as the "problem to be solved", is that, if the universe contains slavery, then that is all well and good (something God certainly seems to think, if The Bible is an authority on the topic!). Is there no reason to change or even look for a solution to slavery, if we have found it to be a problem? And don't say something dumb like "Well, the people who thought to eradicate slavery were made by God, so they were part of the universe."

You've obviously dodged uncomfortable points I have made already. For example, you never answered this simple question:

How can God want us to simultaneously care for our fellow man and turn a blind eye to His wanton destruction of that same fellow man?

 

[Jollybear]

Irrelevant, and you know it. Or should.,


And six year contracts only applied to Hebrew slaves. Other slaves could be held for life and even passed down to the next generation.


Nice words of advise to be sure, but in no way do they absolve god of his immoral stance on slavery in general, or on his permissive attitude toward beating slaves. "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.


Your ridiculous, self serving rephrasing here and absurd logic hasn't gone unnoticed. Try it on someone who doesn't know the English language. Believe me, apologetics isn't your forte.

Have a good day.

.

Let me ask you something else. Because im trying to help you see something that is very obvious to me.

Do you agree that a child molester should be beat up?

If yes, then its because he did wrong.

Ok, if a slave breaks a contract, why shouldn't he be punished?

Put yourself not just in the shoes of the slave. Put yourself in the shoes of the slave owner.

If you provided food, shelture, possibly a wife and even friendship to some guy name joe, under the agreement he does work for you for 6 years. He does x,y and z duties.

If he wer to break that agreement with you, would you be ticked off? Mind you, his work, HELP is absolutely paramount to YOUR success.

Would you be pissed?

I bet you would be pissed. But you cant act pissed because you need to hold up the bible bash stance.

Let me elaborate more.

You put time, energy and money into building that house, and time into providing that food.

Then mr joe wants to repay your goodness with a slap in the face rebelion by disobeying orders, going off being lazy.

And youd not be pissed?

Youd be like, oh, thats just joe for ya. No big deal

Lol, suuuuuure ya would.

 

[sojourner]

Let me ask you something else. Because im trying to help you see something that is very obvious to me.

Do you agree that a child molester should be beat up?

If yes, then its because he did wrong.

Ok, if a slave breaks a contract, why shouldn't he be punished?

I don’t think a child molester should be “beat up.” There are better ways of dealing with them.

However, I agree that biblical “slave” usually refers to bond-servant, in a contractual way. To equate that with the American slavery of the 18th and 19th centuries is disingenuous. Especially when intimating that “God approves of slavery.”

 

[Axe Elf]

Here's what I originally stated:

Let's keep this simple and apply the above to slavery (very on-topic, wouldn't you say?). If we have a problem with slavery, and we instituted it, then we're the best source for a "solution" to that problem. That is what I meant. But your reply, wholesale, to my statement was this:

What you basically said in response to my statement, when used in the context of slavery as the "problem to be solved", is that, if the universe contains slavery, then that is all well and good (something God certainly seems to think, if The Bible is an authority on the topic!). Is there no reason to change or even look for a solution to slavery, if we have found it to be a problem? And don't say something dumb like "Well, the people who thought to eradicate slavery were made by God, so they were part of the universe."

You've obviously dodged uncomfortable points I have made already. For example, you never answered this simple question:

I can understand your confusion when it comes to the difficulty of seeing human beings as a part of the universe, rather than as an outside force acting upon it, as our own exaggerated sense of self-importance would have us believe, but until you get past that, I don't think that anything else I can say will clear things up for you. We are not the source of our problems, and we are not the solution to them. Problems and solutions occur in the universe because that is the nature of the universe itself--and that is indeed all well and good.

 

[Jollybear]

I don’t think a child molester should be “beat up.” There are better ways of dealing with them.

However, I agree that biblical “slave” usually refers to bond-servant, in a contractual way. To equate that with the American slavery of the 18th and 19th centuries is disingenuous. Especially when intimating that “God approves of slavery.”

I agree that a biblical slave is a bond servant. Did work without wages. His shelter and food was provided for.

But there was the passage too that said God told them at the 7th year of there freedom the master was to provide them liberally.

 

[sojourner]

I agree that a biblical slave is a bond servant. Did work without wages. His shelter and food was provided for.

But there was the passage too that said God told them at the 7th year of there freedom the master was to provide them liberally.

Correct. When they were set free, the former master had to provide clothing, food, and such tools and implements as might be needed to set up a working household — including land and a domicile.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I can understand your confusion when it comes to the difficulty of seeing human beings as a part of the universe, rather than as an outside force acting upon it, as our own exaggerated sense of self-importance would have us believe, but until you get past that, I don't think that anything else I can say will clear things up for you. We are not the source of our problems, and we are not the solution to them. Problems and solutions occur in the universe because that is the nature of the universe itself--and that is indeed all well and good.

I understand all too well that human beings are a part of the universe. We are the stuff of the universe aware of itself. This does not change the fact that we do act upon the universe as well... even as we are part of it. Slavery is not a thing in the universe unless living beings make it a thing. Slavery is not a problem in the universe unless we recognize it as a problem. Even given God's existence, we here on Earth can only look to ourselves for protection against those forces that are otherwise outside of our control. And we'll continue to do so - with or without you.

By the way, there's a problem with your "profound" philosophical meanderings:

Problems and solutions occur in the universe because that is the nature of the universe itself--and that is indeed all well and good.

Since it is all part of the universe, how can you even delineate "problems" and "solutions?" Isn't it all just "well and good?" How can you assign polar connotation to anything if it is all just as it should be? Even you fall victim to what you are claiming to "be above" in your "oh so special" thoughts.

You still dodged my simple question - basically doing a little dance and claiming that I don't understand enough to comprehend the answers you have. Hilarious. It becomes more and more obvious the more I interact with you that you have nothing on offer.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

consider the innocent children of Sodom who were killed when god set fire to the town

Consider the innocent town of Gomorrah. The plot takes place in Sodom, so why is Gomorrah killed off?

That's like getting raped in Dallas, TX and firebombing the entire Metroplex.

So, whose side are you on:

Morality. Those who would toss aside morals because God said so are only boot-lickers, not moral. If one truly believed that morality is important, one would defy an immoral order from God even if it means hell because it is better to be pious in hell than a sinner in heaven.

I find it impossible to know whether or not your suggestion to abolish slavery would result in a better or worse universe--although pure reason suggests it would be worse.

Wow.

Is it just a dramatic part of life or do you enjoy watching people die and get slaughtered?

Some people understand what movies are.

The slavery or servanthood of the Bible was not the same slavery which you are portraying in which people are dehumanized. God is opposed to such slavery.

The bible is clear that slavery is bad for Hebrews but it's fine to do that to everyone else. If slavery was so bad, why did the Exodus even happen? God listened to 400 years of whining for nothing?

What makes you think you are any different than the actors in a gory movie?

Some people understand what movies are.

17 “Whoever curses their father or mother must be killed.

It's honestly amazing Jesus made it to adulthood.

Today people enslave themselves to banks (for their homes) and jobs (for substance).

I think it's kind of insulting to equate "adulting" with slavery.
What is modern slavery? - Anti-Slavery International

My mother constantly complains that she's never paid to do the housework. "You're right," I tell her. "Adults have to adult and do it for free. Them's the breaks." No one pays me to wash my own dishes either. I'm not being beaten or killed for it, though. (At least, not anymore. Mom has mellowed and my more evil father has a new family to torture.)

History and a study of civilizations proves that morals flourished wherever the Catholic Faith was practiced.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

As far as I know nowhere in the Bible does it say that god took anyone as a slave.

I guess you could argue we've been His slaves since Adam and Eve.

But I don't see people justifying pedophilia like they do slavery.

St. Louis Archbishop Didn't Know Sex With Children Was a Crime

Jack Schaap: Preacher Justifies Sex With Teen As "God's Plan"

I can say that God created slavery, although He created a great number of things that I suspect only exist because they are necessary to the best of all possible universes. in that other things can exist in contrast to them.

See, even the Ferengi began to understand that the Rules of Acquisition could be used to improve society. Rom becomes Grand Negus because he wants Ferenginar to be more moral, but the funny thing is, there are rules in their scriptures that would go well with a more progressive society. After all, why hurt entire segments of the population when not hurting them would make a profitable relationship?

Moses: [to Sethi, after Sethi came to see Moses, as he was completing the city to be built] Pharoah is pleased?

Sethi: With the obelisk, yes. But not with certain accusations made against you.

Moses: By whom?

Sethi: You raided the temple granaries?

Moses: Yes.

[Rameses puts first weight on weight scale, while weight scale on opposite side, stays up]

Sethi: You gave the grain to the slaves?

Moses: Yes.

[Rameses puts second weight on weight scale, while weight scale on opposite side, still stays up]

Rameses: You gave them one day in seven to rest.

Moses: Yes.

[Rameses puts third weight on weight scale, and scale lowered, with three weights, added together, to empty weight scale, on opposite side]

Sethi: Did you do all this to gain their favor?

Moses: [Moses then put a brick on empty weight scale, on opposite side of Rameses' weight scale, of accusations, and then said] A city is built of brick, Pharoah. The strong make many, the starving make few. The dead make none. So much for accusations.

The funny part about this quote is that Egypt HAD strikes and unions and such to protect labor rights.

Egyptian laborers strike for pay, ~1170 BCE | Global Nonviolent Action Database

I don’t think a child molester should be “beat up.” There are better ways of dealing with them.

I personally feel they should be removed from the population. Take that how you will. However, if I were to try to engage in some higher moral thinking, perhaps a nice compromise is to let them get their jollies with virtual or other artificial "kids". That way, they get to express themselves sexually and no actual children are harmed (until AI becomes sentient, anyway).

 

[Cacotopia]

Haven’t you ever heard of metaphor? Application of metaphor isn’t a “lie,” it’s the application of a metaphor. We run into trouble when we treat the metaphor as empirical fact.

So would you agree that there are some believers out there taking the bible's metaphors as fact. and then spreading those metaphors as facts.

I had a conversation a when I was back in the states, the conversation ended up talking about dinosaurs, and how this woman, had to delicately explain to her children how dinosaurs worked within "creation." About how they couldn't buy most books that had conflicting information with their version of the way the earth came to be.

Their kids are going to have a pretty rude awakening, unless hey stay off the internet, never leave their town, or never go to a library.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Please reread my posts. God's fault only extends to his immoral condoning and abetting slavery.


This only applies to Hebrew slaves. And so what? A slave is a slave is a slave. Hebrew slaves were just as subject to dehumanization, forced unpaid work and beatings as all the other slaves.


But the population slaves included more than just the few who sold themselves into slavery. Captured enemies were almost always taken as slaves. and as Leviticus 25:44-45 tells you,

44 Regarding male or female slaves that you are allowed to have: You can buy a male or a female slave from the nations that are around you. 45 You can also buy them from the foreign guests who live with you and from their extended families that are with you, who were born in your land. These can belong to you as property.​

And all of them, Hebrew slaves included, were open to the obliteration of self-governance and sovereignty


Yup. As far as I know nowhere in the Bible does it say that god took anyone as a slave. HOWEVER, as I've pointed out, God's fault lies in his immoral condoning and abetting slavery. By laying down rules of ownership god sanctions slavery. Do you think that condoning, abetting, and sanctioning slavery is moral? Sure you do, because your god does.

Would you condone and sanction slavery, and even abet it if necessary, in the USA? Of course you would because your god does.

.

Maybe you should understand, It's people who in slaved other people.
God just set down as to how a slave is to be treated.
Man makes a slave and that slave is for life.

But according to God's way, at the 7th year that slave is to set free.

If a person however sales themselves into slavery that's not God. But the person who sells themselves into slavery.

If you chose to sell yourself into slavery that's not God's fault, that's your fault.

If a Nation takes it's people and sells them into slavery, that's the fault of that nation and people for letting that nation sell it's people into slavery.
That's not God's fault, But the people of that nation for letting that nation sell them into slavery and that person for selling themselves into slavery.

But you seem to want to blame God, for everything that humans do.

So how is it God's fault, that a person sales themselves into slavery.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Only if he is Hebrew, screw the rest, they don't count as people. I'm willing to wager the 'masters' could beat to death their non Hebrew slaves without fear of any kind of punishment.

Maybe you should read before you wager anything, all because if I wager that you are wrong, I would definitely would haved won and you lost.

Exodus 21:20---"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result"
Therefore God is against the beating of slaves. Especially if that male or female slave dies, as a result of being beating that's so severe that they die.

That means The Master who beat their slave that they died, that Master will pay with his life, be put to death.

 

[Faithofchristian]

So would you agree that there are some believers out there taking the bible's metaphors as fact. and then spreading those metaphors as facts.

I had a conversation a when I was back in the states, the conversation ended up talking about dinosaurs, and how this woman, had to delicately explain to her children how dinosaurs worked within "creation." About how they couldn't buy most books that had conflicting information with their version of the way the earth came to be.

Their kids are going to have a pretty rude awakening, unless hey stay off the internet, never leave their town, or go to a library.

If I may ask, Where do you suppose the dinosaur bones came from ?

 

[Cacotopia]

If I may ask, Where do you suppose the dinosaur bones came from ?

What kind of question is this? Large reptilian creatures that roamed the planet hundreds of millions of years ago, those that died and were preserved and in various conditions survived to be unearthed later. You think they were put there?