Whose Side Are You On, God's Or That Of Morality?

[RabbiO]

I agree that a biblical slave is a bond servant. Did work without wages. His shelter and food was provided for.

But there was the passage too that said God told them at the 7th year of there freedom the master was to provide them liberally.

Would you detail your understanding of the different types of avadim, slaves, described in the Torah, especially the non-Hebrew slave. I confess I am curious how you arrived at your statement here.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

When it's been pointed out how immoral god was for cruelly killing innocent people for things they were not responsible for (consider the innocent children of Sodom who were killed when god set fire to the town) Christians typically explain it away by saying god killed these innocent people for a very good reason, A reason we will never know, but is justified because god is good, and therefore would never do an unkind or immoral thing: God had an excellent and justifiable reason for killing innocent mothers and their babies; although, we will never know his reason or the justification.

For the non-believer this is hardly a convincing argument, but so be it, what else can the Christian say? However, speaking of god's pristine morality I ask you to consider the morality of SLAVERY; owning another human being; forcing that person to do unpaid work, and being permitted to beat him or her? Today, almost all peoples of the world condemn slavery because of its immorality. As has been pointed out:

"Although slavery does seem 'obviously wrong' it's worth listing some of the reasons why it's wrong.
1) Slavery increases total human unhappiness
2) The slave-owner treats the slaves as the means to achieve the slave-owner's ends, not as an end in themselves
3) Slavery exploits and degrades human beings
4)Slavery violates human rights: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights explicitly forbids slavery and many of the practices associated with slavery
5) Slavery uses force or the threat of force on other human beings
6) Slavery leaves a legacy of discrimination and disadvantage
7) Slavery is both the result and the fuel of racism, in that many cultures show clear racism in their choice of people to enslave
8) Slavery is both the result and the fuel of gender discrimination
9) Slavery perpetuates the abuse of children"
source​

In moral philosophy there's an ethical theory called deontology that states that the morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than based on the consequences of the action.

"Most deontologists argue that slavery is wrong because it violates a person's rights. They believe everyone has a right to life and to choose how they will live within the rules of society. Deontologists believe it is wrong to treat people merely as objects and tools, to treat people merely as a means to end.

So, slavery is wrong because it violates rights, fairness, and justice. It does not matter if slavery has good or bad economic consequences, it is wrong period. It does not matter if slavery promotes the greatest happiness for the greatest number, it is wrong because it violates the rights of one human being.
source​

Could there be better reasons for condemning slavery? I don't think so. Slavery obliterates an individual's self-governance or sovereignty. It takes over a person's life by others who have not obtained any authority to do this other than by the fact that they are mightier. YET! the Christian god thinks slavery is just fine: quite moral---presumably, if he thought it was immoral he wouldn't condone it.

In Exodus god even sets out rules for owning slaves. A few of them:

Exodus 21:2-3
2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him.

Exodus 21:7-8
7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.

Exodus 21:20-21
20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.​

and in Leviticus we are told:

Leviticus 25: 44-46
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.​

And the acceptance of slavery didn't end with the arrival of Jesus Christ. The New Testament makes no condemnation of slavery and does no more than admonish slaves to be obedient and their masters not to be unfair.

Ephesians 6:5-8
5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.

1 Timothy 6:1-2
1 All who are under the yoke [note the recognition of oppression] as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. 2 Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
​

So, whose side are you on:

The side of those who feel slavery is wrong because it violates a person's dignity and rights. The right to life and to choose how one will live within the rules of society? Or on god's side, who doesn't care if slavery obliterates an individual's self-governance or sovereignty and, in fact, condones it?

.

God is a prick. Since Man was created in God's own image they are too a prick. Damn no one wins.

 

[Jollybear]

Would you detail your understanding of the different types of avadim, slaves, described in the Torah, especially the non-Hebrew slave. I confess I am curious how you arrived at your statement here.

Hey, you look like you are Jewish. Am i right?

Ok, my understanding.

All slaves, hebrew or none hebrew sold themselves, they wer not kidnapped.

Hired hands wer none contract workers. A slave was a contract worker.

Both slave owner and slave had rights. Sounds weird saying a slave had rights, but, they did, its spelled out in the mosaic laws.

A hired hand worked for money. A slave worked for shelter and food.

In a sense, a slave had more livable security, while a hired hand had more freetime.

A slave owner had a right to punish his slave with beating, while a slave had a right to nullify his contract if his master injured him.

In anycase, God said to slave owners to remember they wer slaves in egypt. What hes driving at is the golden rule, treat others how you wish to be treated. Hes getting at the root of hypocrisy.

This is my understanding.

Im not sure specifically what you want me to tell you. Mayby you can ask me to clarify more if need be.

If not, whats your understanding?

 

[Skwim]

Hey, you look like you are Jewish. Am i right?

Ok, my understanding.

All slaves, hebrew or none hebrew sold themselves, they wer not kidnapped.

Then your understanding is faulty.

Judith 7:27
For it would be better for us to be captured by them; for we will be slaves, but our lives will be spared, and we shall not witness the death of our babes before our eyes, or see our wives and children draw their last breath.
​

And as for only selling themselves.

Exodus 21:7
7 “A man might decide to sell his daughter as a slave. If this happens, the rules for making her free are not the same as the rules for making the men slaves free.

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

.


​

.

 

[RabbiO]

Then your understanding is faulty.......
.

Impatient are we?

I was only gone for a couple of minutes, just long enough to pour a cup of coffee. And I was going get all technical and talk about the difference between the eved Ivri and the eved K'naani.

Are you trying to make me feel like the Rodney Dangerfield of rabbis?

 

[Skwim]

Impatient are we?

I was only gone for a couple of minutes, just long enough to pour a cup of coffee. And I was going get all technical and talk about the difference between the eved Ivri and the eved K'naani.

Are you trying to make me feel like the Rodney Dangerfield of rabbis?

Boy, if I only knew what you were talking about.

Well, two hours did pass and there was no word from you.



.

 

[YmirGF]

Boy, if I only knew what you were talking about.

.

What? You've never heard of Rodney Dangerfield?

 

[Skwim]

What? You've never heard of Rodney Dangerfield?

I have. I have. I just fail to see the connection.

.

 

[YmirGF]

I have. I have. I just fail to see the connection.

.

Oh, dear. So, you didn't get my joke either? *starts trembling*

 

[Jollybear]

Then your understanding is faulty.

Judith 7:27
For it would be better for us to be captured by them; for we will be slaves, but our lives will be spared, and we shall not witness the death of our babes before our eyes, or see our wives and children draw their last breath.​

God allows enemies to come against Israel, due to there sins.

Israel chooses to sell themselves to the enemy. If they dont, the enemy kills them.

And as for only selling themselves.

Exodus 21:7
7 “A man might decide to sell his daughter as a slave. If this happens, the rules for making her free are not the same as the rules for making the men slaves free.

Look at what the rest says

"7“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.

10“If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."

Leviticus 25:44-46

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Look at these parts in same chapter

"39“If one of your fellow Israelites falls into poverty and is forced to sell himself to you, do not treat him as a slave.40Treat him instead as a hired worker or as a temporary resident who lives with you, and he will serve you only until the Year of Jubilee. 41At that time he and his children will no longer be obligated to you, and they will return to their clans and go back to the land originally allotted to their ancestors. 42The people of Israel are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt, so they must never be sold as slaves. 43Show your fear of God by not treating them harshly.

44“However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you. 45You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property,46passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way.

47“Suppose a foreigner or temporary resident becomes rich while living among you. If any of your fellow Israelites fall into poverty and are forced to sell themselves to such a foreigner or to a member of his family, 48they still retain the right to be bought back, even after they have been purchased. They may be bought back by a brother, 49an uncle, or a cousin. In fact, anyone from the extended family may buy them back. They may also redeem themselves if they have prospered. 50They will negotiate the price of their freedom with the person who bought them."

Also look here about foreigners.

Leviticus 19:33

"33“Do not take advantage of foreigners who live among you in your land. 34Treat them like native-born Israelites, and love them as you love yourself. Remember that you were once foreigners living in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

Also id like to point out something important in the verse you mentioned.

The words "you may" and "you can".

These are rights, not orders. I made this point before.

But its worth reinstating because Gods political stradegy here when you take into account the whole picture is to give freedom.

Freedom as in RIGHTS. A right is freedom. But, some use there freedom to take others freedom away. So, God says LOVE the foregner, treat them as a native isrealite. Whats he saying here? Hes saying hes giving them the right to not treat them as isrealites, but that he tells them to use there freedom or rights to let others be free via love.​

 

[IsaiahX]

Slavery is very different in a Biblical setting than that of today. These differences include:

• Slaves were made so willingly (usually to pay off debts or similiar economic problems).
• They were not to be abused or mistreated. One of the examples you gave even forbids abuse of slaves.
• There slavery was temporary. They were more similiar to what we would call "indentured servants" now-a-days.
• It was not based on race or nationality.

Slavery as we think of it is immoral. But the biblical definition of willing, temporary servitude? Not so much.