Why ‘us vs them’?

[Secret Chief]

Laws are black and white, they set a required standard.

If they are open to interpretation, then sundary laws will set the requirements and guve clarity.

Regards Tony

What you refer to are the words of one homophobic man. Nothing to do with laws, even when you use upper case.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is my first saved quote from Baha'i Faith that's going in my collection. I may not believe in following any man, but I never deny the words of the Spirit regardless of who's lips they pass. And I take these words by degree. My acceptance never entails all spoken by one who catches my ear.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

Sounds great. Let's take another survey... Do you feel as if Baha'is are actually doing this?

For Baha'is... Do you feel as though you are doing this?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyway, Baha'is have never answered those questions. But what can they say?

We answered the questions CG. That people do not want to consider the answer, that is the issue.

It is not the Baha'i that have to disarm, the Baha'i can only pass on the adcice that this is a God given Counsel and that the peace and security of humanity is impossible while those God given Councels remain unheeded.

The advice given by Baha'u'llah calls upon the Nations to consult and disarm. The Most Great Peace has been rejected, a peace built upon the Oneness of God and Humanity, a lesser peace built on cooperation between the Nations is now required.

It has been foretold that the government's of the world will not choose this path, that they would build up their armoury of weapons way beyond the capacity of humanity to pay for that decadence (just heard that the attack on Isreal by Iran has cost Isreal about a billion dollars) and then they would attack each other like ferocious beats, that great bloodshed and destruction would result.

It is foretold that this era will be cut short with an unforeseen calamity, that will cause the limbs of mankind to shake, and then, and only them, will humanity rise to the challenge of building national unities on a global scale.

This effort will see a Union of Nations that will adequately deal with rouge Nations, that think they have a right to divide and conquer, have the right to eliminate races of peoples.

Hang on CG, it appears there are ferocious beasts on the loose.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What you refer to are the words of one homophobic man. Nothing to do with laws, even when you use upper case.

Statement of ignorance. A self imposed ignorance.

Love compels me to state that fact.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Laws are black and white, they set a required standard.

If they are open to interpretation, then sundary laws will set the requirements and guve clarity.

Regards Tony

Accept maybe for a few people... When has anyone been able to live by "God's" laws?

Let's do another survey...

What do you think will be the number one law of God to be broken and ignored?

What will be the number one law that is broken, but people will pretend they aren't breaking it?

God had people killed for fornicating, for homosexuality, for a woman not being a virgin on her wedding night, for prostitution and other "ungodly" and "immoral" things. Did it stop the behavior? No.

And how far are Baha'is going to go to try and enforce their moral laws? God doesn't want you to kill them anymore. But if that didn't work, how are fines or jail or rehab going to work? Then... how "pure" are those enforcing the rules going to be? And, in a Baha'i world, who will be the enforcers?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Accept maybe for a few people... When has anyone been able to live by "God's" laws?

Let's do another survey...

What do you think will be the number one law of God to be broken and ignored?

What will be the number one law that is broken, but people will pretend they aren't breaking it?

God had people killed for fornicating, for homosexuality, for a woman not being a virgin on her wedding night, for prostitution and other "ungodly" and "immoral" things. Did it stop the behavior? No.

And how far are Baha'is going to go to try and enforce their moral laws? God doesn't want you to kill them anymore. But if that didn't work, how are fines or jail or rehab going to work? Then... how "pure" are those enforcing the rules going to be? And, in a Baha'i world, who will be the enforcers?

I can only share the Laws CG. What anyone else thinks of them, or does with them, is their choice.

A future society will set the laws and penalties, just as in this age they have done so.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

We answered the questions CG. That people do not want to consider the answer, that is the issue.

It is not the Baha'i that have to disarm, the Baha'i can only pass on the adcice that this is a God given Counsel and that the peace and security of humanity is impossible while those God given Councels remain unheeded.

The advice given by Baha'u'llah calls upon the Nations to consult and disarm. The Most Great Peace has been rejected, a peace built upon the Oneness of God and Himanity, a lesser peace built on cooperation between the Nations is now required.

It has been foretold that the government's of the world will not choose this path, that they would build up their armoury of weapons way beyond the capacity of humanity to pay for that decadence and then they would attack each other like ferocious beats, that great bloodshed and destruction would result.

It is foretold that this era will be cut short with an unforeseen calamity, that will cause the limbs of mankind to shake, and then, and only them, will humanity rise to the challenge of building national unities on a global scale.

This effort will see a Union of Nations that will adequately deal with rouge Nations, that think they have a right to divide and conquer, have the right to eliminate races of peoples.

Hang on CG, it appears there are ferocious beasts on the loose.

Regards Tony

Yes, and that kind of stuff is predicted in the NT. Except in Revelation, it has Jesus coming after the tribulation, not before.

Like I said, Baha'is are still in the running. You might be right. But so are other people in the other religions. Even the Born-Again Christians. The way some of them interpret their Scriptures, they have all the evil nations and kings lined up and ready to attack Israel. Then Jesus comes.

Baha'is have it the other way around. Baha'u'llah came almost two hundred years ago. We've had two world wars. And things like war and natural disasters are looking like they could destroy everything any day now. So, will Jesus come? Or Kalki? How about Maitreya? Or, has the promised already come and all these tribulations are meant to get us to realize that Baha'u'llah was the guy?

Oh, and what was the answer that showed the "science" that proved or showed evidence for God? And what was the answer to my questions about the nations disarming? I forgot. You mind repeating them?

 

[Trailblazer]

Because the Bahai religion is homophobic, sorry, traditional.

The Baha'i law stating that marriage is only allowed between a man and a woman does not make the Baha'i Faith homophobic.
Only people can be homophobic.

The reason for that law is because Baha'u'llah stated that the primary purpose of marriage is to have children, and last I checked it takes a man and a woman to produce children.

homophobic: having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
homophobic means - Google Search

Baha'is do not have a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
A Baha'i law is not homophobia, except in the distorted minds of people who want to denigrate the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Spice]

The Baha'i law stating that marriage is only allowed between a man and a woman does not make the Baha'i Faith homophobic.
Only people can be homophobic.

The reason for that law is because Baha'u'llah stated that the primary purpose of marriage is to have children, and last I checked it takes a man and a woman to produce children.

homophobic: having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
homophobic means - Google Search

Baha'is do not have a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
A Baha'i law is not homophobia, except in the distorted minds of people who want to denigrate the Baha'i Faith.

Just for clarity, (I don't believe in discounting any path towards God that does no direct harm to others) would the Baha'i Faith condone a same sex marriage union in order for two adults who love each other to adopt orphaned children into a family?

 

[Niatero]

Just for clarity, (I don't believe in discounting any path towards God that does no direct harm to others) would the Baha'i Faith condone a same sex marriage union in order for two adults who love each other to adopt orphaned children into a family?

I don’t like to get into these discussions, but I’ll indulge my temptation this time. This is just my personal opinion as a person who has studied Baha’i writings and has some experience with Baha’i institutions. First of all, they can’t certify it as a “Baha’i marriage” bound by all the provisions of Baha’i law. Apart from that it might vary from place to place. Sometimes a local council might take action against a Baha’i who enters into a same-sex marriage, and sometimes not. It depends partly on the laws and customs of the surrounding society. It may or may not depend on their orientation, if there is prejudice in the local community against gays.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just for clarity, (I don't believe in discounting any path towards God that does no direct harm to others) would the Baha'i Faith condone a same sex marriage union in order for two adults who love each other to adopt orphaned children into a family?

The Baha'i Laws revealed by Baha'u'llah cannot be changed.

From the Book of Laws, which is the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith:

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

Personally, I have much more respect for committed homosexual marriages than I have for heterosexuals who have sex outside of wedlock, the latter of which is against Baha'i law. Also, anyone who would take in orphaned children is a good person in my eyes. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with who is a good person.

 

[Spice]

@Trailblazer
I'm glad to see that individual members, if not the institution, knows how to put love first. IMO that's the key for all, regardless of ceremonies and tenets. Bravo!

 

[Secret Chief]

The Baha'i law stating that marriage is only allowed between a man and a woman does not make the Baha'i Faith homophobic.

Baha'is do not have a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

Then I would say it is unreasonably discriminatory and has the effect of justifying homophobia.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Trailblazer
I'm glad to see that individual members, if not the institution, knows how to put love first. IMO that's the key for all, regardless of ceremonies and tenets. Bravo!

I would offer that the Institutiin of the Universal House of Justice knows how to put love first. It is out of love, that they are first elected to serve, to enact the laws that will ensure a safe, unified and loving community.

They are also individuals with the good of all humanity their goal.

Regards Tony

 

[Niatero]

Baha'is do not have a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

It may or may not be less than in the larger society, but I don’t think that anyone is totally free of it, not even gays, if you consider unconscious and internalized prejudices.

 

[McBell]

I would offer that the Institutiin of the Universal House of Justice knows how to put love first. It is out of love, that they are first elected to serve, to enact the laws that will ensure a safe, unified and loving community.

They are also individuals with the good of all humanity their goal.

Regards Tony

Seems to me that before you can be rid of the "us v them" mentality in the outside world, you will need to do away with the "us v them" mentality within your own world first.

How can you propose to eliminate "us v them" when your own Law demands that very "us v them"?

 

[CG Didymus]

Since Tony has made it clear that the only way Baha'i will permit "us vs them" to be abolished is by the whole world accepting the teachings of Baha'u'llah I feel that a few words concerning the self proclaimed "infallibility" of Baha'u'llah are relevant;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

I just read a few pages about the teachings of the Bab. Unbelievable. I don't suspect any Baha'i will be allowed to read that book.

 

[Trailblazer]

I just read a few pages about the teachings of the Bab. Unbelievable. I don't suspect any Baha'i will be allowed to read that book.

Why are the teachings of the Bab unbelievable? Why would Baha'is not be allowed to read that book? You read it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why are the teachings of the Bab unbelievable? Why would Baha'is not be allowed to read that book? You read it.

No he is not reading it. He is reading material from a anti Baha'i website.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I just read a few pages about the teachings of the Bab. Unbelievable. I don't suspect any Baha'i will be allowed to read that book.

I bet if you read stuff from anti Christain and anti Muslim websites, you would get the same responses.

I do not bet though, it is against Baha'i law, I do not even do lottery tickets. I like to earn my living, not live a pipe dream.

Regards Tony