Why ‘us vs them’?

[TransmutingSoul]

Seems to me that before you can be rid of the "us v them" mentality in the outside world, you will need to do away with the "us v them" mentality within your own world first.

How can you propose to eliminate "us v them" when your own Law demands that very "us v them"?

I do not see the mentality of us vs them disappearing anytime soon. It will happen though, the distant future will have people living in harmony.

I fully expect many naysayers to say a lot of rubbish about the Baha'i Faith, it's like young children throwing tantrums, they lash out at the people that will always love them the most.

No worries, life is like that, you let the tantrum run its course. They soon realise the folly of such a course of action.

Regards Tony

 

[McBell]

I do not see the mentality of us vs them disappearing anytime soon.

I do not see it disappearing until some time AFTER your laws stop demanding it.

It will happen though, the distant future will have people living in harmony.

I applaud your optimism, but do not share in it.
Mainly because the Baha'i are not the only ones preaching unity without practicing it.

I fully expect many naysayers to say a lot of rubbish about the Baha'i Faith, it's like young children throwing tantrums, they lash out at the people that will always love them the most.

To dismiss the flaws in your sermons as nothing more than naysayers throwing tantrums says far more about you than the naysayers.

No worries, life is like that, you let the tantrum run its course. They soon realise the folly of such a course of action.

I agree.
The naysayers will sooner or later realize there was no sincerity in the sermons and move along to the next sermon hoping there will be some actual purposeful actions to go with the words.

 

[CG Didymus]

I fully expect many naysayers to say a lot of rubbish about the Baha'i Faith, it's like young children throwing tantrums, they lash out at the people that will always love them the most.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

I know it's hard to put some of a religion's teachings into practice, but it would make a big difference in how your religion is received by others.

 

[Niatero]

Since this thread has been derailed, I'm thinking of starting a new one for discussing ideas about what people can do in their everyday lives to help improve the world for all people everywhere, now and in the future. It could actually be considered a new topic anyway. I'm hoping that everyone has enough friendly feelings for me, to try to avoid derailing it. Not asking for any promises or blood signatures! I'll start it with an updated list of ideas from this thread.

For a title, how about "Everyday practices for helping to improve the world." Also, maybe it would be better not to do it in a debate forum. That could even be my lame excuse for starting a new thread. Maybe in The Social World forum.

P.S. I'll be applying for a software patent on this idea, so don't anybody try to steal it.

 

[Niatero]

Here's a rough draft of my O.P. for the new thread:

This is for any ideas that anyone has for everyday practices that might help improve the world for all people everywhere, now and far into the future. It could be anything from doing fingernail exercises to building a black hole just outside the orbit of the moon. I've stolen copied all the ideas that I could find from a debate forum, to talk about it here, where we can pretend that we're safe from heckling, clowning and personal attacks. Covering my Disclaimer: These ideas do not represent the opinion of the author of this post. He agrees with some of them but not all of them. He considers some of them as examples of how wacky the ideas can be, to be welcome in this thread. Not saying which ones.

Beneath that will be an updated list of ideas from this thread.

(later) I'll leave out the part about heckling, clowning and personal attacts, because it might invite some heckling, clowning and personal attacks.

This is for any ideas that anyone has for everyday practices that might help improve the world for all people everywhere, now and far into the future. It could be anything from doing fingernail exercises to building a black hole just outside the orbit of the moon. I've stolen copied all the ideas that I could find from a debate forum, to talk about it here, which I think might be better for my purposes.. Covering my Disclaimer: These ideas do not represent the opinion of the author of this post. He agrees with some of them but not all of them. He considers some of them as examples of how wacky the ideas can be, to be welcome in this thread. Not saying which ones.

(later) I'm rethinking this. I don't want to start out jokingly, and I don't want to bring all the ideas from here into it. I want it to be strictly about practices and not about belief systems, including secular ones.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's a rough draft of my O.P. for the new thread:

For starters, it would help if people would stop judging and criticizing other people and look rather at themselves and their own faults.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

27: O SON OF MAN! Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

 

[soulsurvivor]

Why haven’t we people been more vigilant with regards to our leaders both religious and political, turning us against one another by creating an ‘us vs them’ mentality in our minds when in reality we are all fellow humans? For thousands of years we humans have been pitted against one another often manipulated by leaders demonising other human beings so we will kill them.

Are you saying that if Neville Chamberlain had just remained PM of Britain instead letting Churchill take over, we (and the Czechs and the Polish and the French) would have lived happily ever after with the friendly Germans?

 

[danieldemol]

For starters, it would help if people would stop judging and criticizing other people and look rather at themselves and their own faults.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

27: O SON OF MAN! Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

@Niatero
Hasn't done any of that.

 

[danieldemol]

@Trailblazer
I'm glad to see that individual members, if not the institution, knows how to put love first. IMO that's the key for all, regardless of ceremonies and tenets. Bravo!

@Traiblazer believes in laws against gay marriage for the record

 

[danieldemol]

I just read a few pages about the teachings of the Bab. Unbelievable. I don't suspect any Baha'i will be allowed to read that book.

Technically they are allowed to read it for the purpose of attempting to refute it (as opposed to doing what an intellectual would do and see if its true first *then* refute it only if its false in my view

 

[CG Didymus]

Technically they are allowed to read it for the purpose of attempting to refute it (as opposed to doing what an intellectual would do and see if its true first *then* refute it only if its false in my view

I wondered why so little is mentioned about the Bab. I'd really have to question how anybody would consider him a manifestation of God.
But, since Baha'is do, they'd have to say that those people that wrote that book are lying.

 

[CG Didymus]

Since this thread has been derailed

Some of the best debates in these threads started by Baha'is come after it's been derailed.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Niatero
Hasn't done any of that.

@Niatero absolutely has not done any of that, but someone else on this thread did.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Traiblazer believes in laws against gay marriage for the record

@Trailblazer believes in the Laws of Baha'u'llah, for the record.
I have nothing against gay marriage, Baha'u'llah did.

 

[CG Didymus]

Since Tony has made it clear that the only way Baha'i will permit "us vs them" to be abolished is by the whole world accepting the teachings of Baha'u'llah I feel that a few words concerning the self proclaimed "infallibility" of Baha'u'llah are relevant;

'Bahā’u’llāh is probably the only Prophet ever who has revised and changed the errors in his own writings, and the only erring infallible. Unfortunately, some people fail to see why these errors must not be committed by a divine figure who carries God’s messages. Some people fail to realize that God’s words don’t need to be edited, proofread, and changed, especially if they have been penned by the “Unerring Pen.” To make matters worse, the UHJ explicitly mentions that many of the changes were suggested to Bahā’u’llāh by an ordinary person: 481 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 71. 482 Bahā’u’llāh, Majmū`iy-i alwāḥ-i mubārak-ih, p. 78. 483 This can be deduced from his statement “then they would be like your words,” which was uttered by Bahā’u’llāh to state that there must be a difference between the words of God and the words of the people and this difference exists in the grammatical conventions. 217 It is important to note that the stylistic and grammatical changes mentioned above took place over time—often it was Zayn himself that suggested them—and therefore the various manuscripts differ somewhat, one from the other.484 These words show how helpless Bahā’u’llāh was in correcting his errors. Every time he fixed the errors some more were found and he was again forced to make changes in the book and give out a new revised version. He even needed a fallible person to point out these errors and give him suggestions. Thus, the book was not revised once but numerous times. If these changes were made to “to forestall the cavils of the opponents of the Cause” then why not change it accordingly once and shut the mouth of the opponents once and for all. Are the words of God some sort of joke that must be changed every time someone objects to them? The words of God are perfect they need not be changed for style and grammar. These acts by Bahā’u’llāh are in direct contradiction with the claimed infallibility and divine knowledge attributed to him. What is the difference between this Baha’i prophet and all other ordinary men who make mistakes and correct them later on? What kind of an Omniscient God do Baha’is believe in that cannot foresee the troubling consequences of his revelations and changes them multiple times and gives out newer versions and editions?!'

Source:
Twelve Principles:
A Comprehensive Investigation on
the Baha’i Teachings
Masoud Basiti, Zahra Moradi, Hossein Akhoondali
Translated by: Hossein Akhoondali, Ali Mansouri
page 216-217

Which can be downloaded here: https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/TwelvePrinciples/Twelve Principles - A Comprehensive Investigation on the Bahai Teachings.pdf

This is troubling. It's on page 45...

Vance Salisbury, in his article A Critical Examination of 20th-Century Baha'i Literature, 68 points to many other distortions of this kind. He brings up many interesting subjects. For instance, he refers to another unfulfilled prophecy from `Abdu’l-Bahā that was later removed from Esslemont’s book:​

Perhaps the most important change in Bahā'u'llāh and the New Era was made on page 212 of the 1923 edition. Recorded as a Bahā'ī prophecy concerning the "Coming of the Kingdom of God," Esslemont cited Abdu'l-Bahā's interpretation of the last two verses of the Book of Daniel from the Bible. He stated that the 1335 days spoken of by Daniel represented 1335 solar years from Muhammad's flight to Medina in 622 A.D., which would equal 1957 A.D.. When asked "'What shall we see at the end of the 1335 days?'," Abdu'l-Bahā's reply was: "'Universal Peace will be firmly established, a Universal language promoted. Misunderstandings will pass away. The Bahā'ī Cause will be promulgated in all parts and the oneness of mankind established. It will be most glorious!'"​

 

[CG Didymus]

No he is not reading it. He is reading material from a anti Baha'i website.

Regards Tony

So, the writers of that book are lying? They're giving the references where they got the quotes.

I bet if you read stuff from anti Christain and anti Muslim websites, you would get the same responses.

Actually, a lot of my "anti-Christian" beliefs came from the Baha'i Faith. There is no Satan. That is symbolic for our lower nature. Jesus did not physically rise from the dead. His physical body died. His spirit rose. Jesus is not God. There is no trinity. There is only one God. Jesus is one of the many manifestations of God.

And you know what... the Baha'is might be right. But for some reason I've become skeptical of religious people telling me what is true or not.

But, thanks to the Baha'i teachings, I'm personally investigating the different claims religious people make.

 

[danieldemol]

@Niatero absolutely has not done any of that, but someone else on this thread did.

Then wouldn't it make sense to respond to that someone else?

Personally if I find someone misbehaving I dont go round telling the good people to be good, I address the person misbehaving, but perhaps that's just my M.O *shrugs*

 

[CG Didymus]

I understand the need for order and to have governments, religious leaders and an identity. But only for practical purposes not that we should become enemies or strangers .

Hey stranger, where are you? If anyone is going to have a perspective that tries to bring opposing sides together it's going to be you. We've got an "Us vs. Them" thing going on right here. How should a Baha'i respond?

I know... Let's take a survey...

Add fuel to the fire?

Try to build bridges of understanding between the opposing sides?

Ignore them and hope they go away?

Support your side, because you are right, and you shouldn't give in to blind, ignorant people?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hey stranger, where are you? If anyone is going to have a perspective that tries to bring opposing sides together it's going to be you. We've got an "Us vs. Them" thing going on right here. How should a Baha'i respond?

I know... Let's take a survey...

Add fuel to the fire?

Try to build bridges of understanding between the opposing sides?

Ignore them and hope they go away?

Support your side, because you are right, and you shouldn't give in to blind, ignorant people?

Maybe the best thing for me to do is just blend in. And be a part of the family. Treat all as equals and be respectful of all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe the best thing for me to do is just blend in. And be a part of the family. Treat all as equals and be respectful of all.

This was always going to be a us vs them, that is the current nature of the collective mind of humanity.

Stay happy, stay well, the day will come when there is no us vs them.

Love and peace, regards Tony