Why ‘us vs them’?

[Niatero]

My own Guru spoke at the United Nations about reducing violence on the planet by reducing violence in the home. The idea is that children learn violence at home, and if we can get at the real cause (early in life in the home) we can reduce it. That first slap, that first belittling with words, is where it all starts. Of course not everyone will see that connection, as disconnect for a lot of things is rampant on this planet. Many other teachers, like Sai Baba, Amma, and more have charitable sides to their organizations. So do many Hindu temples. Being charitable is all part of growing up spiritually. But we're humble about it generally, and don't go around bragging.

Training children is first on my list for working for a better world for all people.

 

[Niatero]

Post #82.

Okay, thanks.

 

[Vinayaka]

Training children is first on my list for working for a better world for all people.

I was an elementary school teacher for 30 years. Best wishes.

 

[Vinayaka]

Social change happens individual by individual. I coin it the molecular theory of social change. Anyone who assumes that that is nothing hasn't been arounf folks who've accomplished a lot, one day at a time. It has to do with action, not talking about it. But I digress.

 

[Niatero]

Careful, rule 8.

"Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching."

I won’t say that he doesn’t preach, but in that case he was answering a question from me, about what he thinks. I feel bad that answering my question got him in trouble. It makes me afraid to ask questions.

 

[Niatero]

Their "solution" is for all people to one day realize that the Baha'i Faith is the truth and whatever Baha'u'llah said is what we have to do.

Yes, that’s almost exactly how it looks to me.

 

[Niatero]

And there it is. If everybody would just be good, everybody would be good.

"You see, one of my clever subjects has written a parchment entitled 'How to be Good,' and I believed it would benefit me to study it, as I consider the accomplishment of being good one of the fine arts."

"'A Good Man is One who is Never Bad.' How's that, eh? Fine thought, what? 'Therefore, in order to be Good, you must avoid those Things which are Evil.' Oh, hoo-hoo-hoo! — how clever! When I get back I shall make the man who wrote that a royal hippolorum, for, beyond question, he is the wisest man in my kingdom -- as he has often told me himself."

"Here is another selection: 'To avoid saying Unpleasant Things, always Speak Agreeably.' That would hit Bilbil, to a dot. And here is one that applies to you, my Prince: 'Good Children are seldom punished, for the reason that they deserve no punishment.' Now, I think that is neatly put, and shows the author to be a deep thinker. But the advice that has impressed me the most is in the following paragraph: 'You may not find it as Pleasant to be Good as it is to be Bad, but Other People will find it more Pleasant.' Haw-hoo-ho! keek-eek! 'Other people will find it more pleasant!' — hee, hee, heek, keek! — 'more pleasant.' Dear me --- dear me! Therein lies a noble incentive to be good, and whenever I get time I'm surely going to try it."

- Rinkitink in Oz

 

[danieldemol]

I won’t say that he doesn’t preach, but in that case he was answering a question from me, about what he thinks. I feel bad that answering my question got him in trouble. It makes me afraid to ask questions.

It wasn't so much that he answered your question as how he answered that raised the interest of the admins, they require an "in my opinion" or suitable equivalent to be added to non-factual information.

But I wouldn't be too worried as the amount of warnings a person gets seems to be pretty generous before any action is taken, I believe Tony has been stating his opinions as factual for a long time and he's still here posting away.

 

[Niatero]

It wasn't so much that he answered your question as how he answered that raised the interest of the admins, they require an "in my opinion" or suitable equivalent to be added to non-factual information.

But I wouldn't be too worried as the amount of warnings a person gets seems to be pretty generous before any action is taken, I believe Tony has been stating his opinions as factual for a long time and he's still here posting away.

Thanks. I'm not worried about it any more. I see that there's more to it than just his response to my question.

 

[Niatero]

Here's an updated list of ideas from this thread for solutions. These are not my ideas, they are all the ideas I could find in all the posts in this thread. If I missed any, someone please tell me. I do agree with some of them, but not all of them.

- Stop believing that we are "us vs them."
- Confine our wishes to harm in thoughts only.
- Treat all other people as if we were part of one "human" group, and support efforts to encourage that.
- Embrace what God has offered through Baha'u'llah.
- Honest dialogue and actually listening to other people.
- Practice ahimsa and work towards harmony between religions.
- Compromise beliefs for the sake of peace and unity.
- An attitude that we are all on different paths but still heading in the same direction and heading for the same place.
- Bring Magog down from every high place.
- International elective process
- Social and legal equality of women.
- Elimination of slavery.
- Harmony of science and religion.
- Agreement between nations for response to invasions.
- Education and training of children.
- Actions of individuals one day at a time.

I'll be looking at this from the point of view of a person who is looking for ideas about what they can do personally in their everyday life, to help solve the problems, more specifically in the context of this thread, the problem of tribalism. How can they decide what to try, and how can they decide if it's actually helping or not?

(later) One idea I have to answer both questions is for each idea, to look for a community that has been practicing it for a few generations, and see if there is less tribalism in it than outside of it. That can help decide what to try, and how much it might actually help, at the same time. It's not sure though because there is the fallacy of "correlation = causation" to consider. Now I'm thinking of reversing the process. First look for communities where the tribalism in the community is less than outside of it, then try to find out how that happened, with the ideas above as possible factors among others. Also of course, whether or not there is less tribalism is highly subjective. It would just be what I personally mean by "tribalism," and my own personal opinion about how much there is of it. Actually, I don't call the problem that I'm seeing "tribalism." I call it "drawing lines of alienation." Also, I see it as a symptom of deeper problems, and as a popular way of excusing and camouflaging not caring about the harmfulness in what people are promoting in pursuit of their own selfish interests.

 

[Niatero]

Social change happens individual by individual. I coin it the molecular theory of social change. Anyone who assumes that that is nothing hasn't been arounf folks who've accomplished a lot, one day at a time. It has to do with action, not talking about it. But I digress.

Of all the ideas that I've seen in this thread, your approach looks the most promising to me. I've decided now to look for communities where there is less tribalism in the community than in the society around it, and try to see how that might have happened, with their practices as possible factors. See my post above. Do you know of communities that have been practicing the ideas that you have been practicing for a few generations, where the tribalism might be less than in the society around them? If so, is there anyway that I can find some information about them, to see what I think about that?

Tamil Nadu might possibly be one example, according to ChatGPT 3.5.

 

[shunyadragon]

Agreed. But rather than striving to eliminate us versus them, why don't we strive towards us loves and accepts them.

No one wants to give up who they are!

Why can't we learn to see our version of God in the hearts of all mankind, even if just a tiny speck, and embrace that first and foremost over all else?

We have no power to change anyone other than ourselves.

Namaste

The problem is living in the past tribal paradigms and not and not embracing the universal. Yes we can acknowledge our spiritual heritage as we acknowledge the spiritual heritage of thousands of years of human spiritual evolution ot all of humanity, and not just on religion or belief system. Er still seek wisdom of all ancient religions, and of course science without rejecting our past.

Yes we have the ability to share the universal view with others, but it is up to them to change. Regardless the only way to change beyond ourselves is to advocate change to a more universal perspective.

 

[shunyadragon]

Rubbish. "embracing what God has offered through Baha'u'llah" is no more than your subjective opinion. It's not even in the starting blocks for being "a logical fact."

Careful logic does not represent facts, and unfortunately it most often self serving to justify what one believes.

 

[Niatero]

The concept of the tribal problem of us vs them is a problem universal with the history humanity, and the initial post and poll does not only address the Baha'i beliefs Baha'i principles do address the problem.

The problem ancient tribalism today is is a real threat of world violence on a cataclysm scale, Wars in recent history have progressively in creased in intensity, casualties and degree of destruction.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Vinayaka. I've decided now to look for communities where there is less tribalism in the community than in the society around it, and try to see how that might have happened, with their practices as possible factors. See my post above. Do you know of some communities that have been practicing the ideas that you have been practicing for a few generations, where the tribalism might be less than in the society around them? If so, is there anyway that I can find some information about them, to see what I think about that?

 

[danieldemol]

Careful logic does not represent facts, and unfortunately it most often self serving to justify what one believes.

Tell that to Tony in my view.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Vinayaka. I've decided now to look for communities where there is less tribalism in the community than in the society around it, and try to see how that might have happened, with their practices as possible factors. See my post above. Do you know of some communities that have been practicing the ideas that you have been practicing for a few generations, where the tribalism might be less than in the society around them? If so, is there anyway that I can find some information about them, to see what I think about that?

I actually fo the same thing over most od my adult life I have had close associations with th eUnitarians and the Baha'i Faith which in their way do approach the promotion of a more universal perspective of the human journey of evolving spirituality,and read and study all the scriptures of different belief systems to share their wisdom. I consider all the religions in terms of the spiritual heritage of humanity.

The journey can at times be a lonely one

 

[shunyadragon]

Tell that to Tony in my view.

He can read and I believe does read my posts,

 

[Niatero]

... the solution is as easy, as it was written down.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Vinayaka and shunyadragon. I've decided now to look for communities where there is less tribalism in the community than in the society around it, and try to see how that might have happened, with their practices as possible factors. See my earlier post about that. Do you know of some communities that have been practicing the ideas that you have been practicing for a few generations, where the tribalism might be less than in the society around them? If so, is there any way that I can find some information about them, to see what I think about that?

 

[Spice]

The problem is living in the past tribal paradigms and not and not embracing the universal. Yes we can acknowledge our spiritual heritage as we acknowledge the spiritual heritage of thousands of years of human spiritual evolution ot all of humanity, and not just on religion or belief system. Er still seek wisdom of all ancient religions, and of course science without rejecting our past.

Yes we have the ability to share the universal view with others, but it is up to them to change. Regardless the only way to change beyond ourselves is to advocate change to a more universal perspective.

And the way to make that change, IMHO, is not in what we profess in word, but what we profess in action.

We have to get out there in the world and share ourselves--not our religious beliefs, but our fellowship-- our friendship. We have to LIVE our beliefs, without explanation. In order to break tribalism we must leave our tribes from time to time.

 

[Spice]

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Vinayaka and shunyadragon. I've decided now to look for communities where there is less tribalism in the community than in the society around it, and try to see how that might have happened, with their practices as possible factors. See my earlier post about that. Do you know of some communities that have been practicing the ideas that you have been practicing for a few generations, where the tribalism might be less than in the society around them? If so, is there any way that I can find some information about them, to see what I think about that?

Take a stroll down Bourbon Street, New Orleans, after dark on a Friday night. Embrace the variety without judgment or fear. Be among the people.