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Why a male supreme God?

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Right there is you first error. Assuming that the Spiritual REALITY doesn't exist simply because it has no physicality to it, will lead you up the wrong garden path - every time.

Truly now, the spiritual realm IS THE REALITY, but the physical representation of this invisible realm, is NOT REALITY at all. Rather it is all a great big ILLUSION unto our perception, and a provable one at that. This is why a great man, 2000 years ago referring to a massive building at which others around him marvelled (as 'real'), said will be torn down in just three days; with not one stone left standing upon another. They naturally became very angry with him for suggesting this, but he was soon enough proven right, for he understood the difference between REALITY and ILLUSION, whilst they did not.

WRONG! Haven't you heard? Why do you not understand when we have it clearly stated in writing;

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh (physical) profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Again you are sadly mistaken on so many levels, for light is BOTH particle and wave - which by the way, has no physicality whatsoever - so is not only SPIRITUAL, but indeed is the force that moves the particles!

A conundrum you say? Only to those who lack respect for, and awareness of the REALITY of existence - that surely is the spiritual realm.


From Wikipedia: In the quantum theory of electromagnetism, EMR[ElectroMagnetic Radiation] consists of photons, the elementary particles responsible for all electromagnetic interactions.

As I said my friend, EVERYTHING is physical or else it doesn't exist. In my faith we have a scripture that reads like this (Doctrine & Covenants Section 131):
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.​

This was written in 1843. Since then science has proved exactly this. That there all all types of matter particles, and they physically exist (i.e. they take up space) whether or not humans are able to see them with their natural eyes.

So even if you say God is a Spirit, it doesn't take away from the fact that that spirit is a physical entity which occupies space, and has a form. If God had no form then he could not have created us in his image and likeness.
 

Sihopopa

Member
From Wikipedia: In the quantum theory of electromagnetism, EMR[ElectroMagnetic Radiation] consists of photons, the elementary particles responsible for all electromagnetic interactions.

As I said my friend, EVERYTHING is physical or else it doesn't exist. In my faith we have a scripture that reads like this (Doctrine & Covenants Section 131):
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;​
So are your thoughts, your dreams, your understanding, your moods, your imagination, the words issuing out of your mouth, the software in your computer, your affection for your elephant, the pain you feel when your elephant steps on your toe - also all matter? Or do such as these not exist? Hmmmm????

You can't have it both ways.
This was written in 1843. Since then science has proved exactly this. That there all all types of matter particles, and they physically exist (i.e. they take up space) whether or not humans are able to see them with their natural eyes.

So even if you say God is a Spirit, it doesn't take away from the fact that that spirit is a physical entity which occupies space, and has a form. If God had no form then he could not have created us in his image and likeness.
Well my friend, I have zero respect for religion generally, and now you've given reason to have even less for yours.

Most definitely - not everything is matter. A wave effectively precludes matter, so where do you intend to go from there? Sure a wave can and does move THROUGH matter, but simply CANNOT be matter - science 101 right there.

In any case, you are partially correct (but not for the reasons you might think), for the CREATOR certainly has form - as witnessed throughout his creation - his created physical evidence if you will. It's like a carpenter might create a house and then leave to work on another project. So even when he is no longer around, we see evidence of his presence in his physical representation; his intelligence, his creativity, his skill, his patience and understanding; all in the results of his work. The similarity ends there however, for the house creator certainly has a physical presence. The eternal CREATOR certainly does NOT - irrespective of your 1843 error!
 
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Thanda

Well-Known Member
The suggestion of inferiority came from - YOU! I have no opinion of 'God' having sex, for unless you are an ancient Greek pagan worshipping Zeus and Hera, such a suggestion is plainly ludicrous. You may as well ask what my opinion would be of finding your elephant taking a bath in my light bulb. Would that make your elephant inferior?

You may if you like, but I simply don't play mindless games with anyone, especially those who is so confused.
When did I make the suggestion of inferiority? I merely said that God has a wife. To which you replied in a tone of unmistakable sarcasm and scorn that they have sex. Sensing your tone I then asked you whether you thought God having sex made him somehow inferior.

My opinion, just fyi, is that him having sex, eating and drinking would not make him inferior at all.

Another thing to note: after Jesus died, he was resurrected - that is he took back his body. After that he ate with the apostle and they touched him: this clearly shows that Jesus body was definitely a tangible physical body (Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.). With this same very physical body Jesus did something amazing (John 20:19 - Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.) Did you notice what happened there? He walked into a room without using the doors. His very physical body which had been touched and felt was able to go through walls.
Jesus then went into heaven with the self-same physical body.

From all this we learn that having a physical body doesn't mean that one is limited in anyway. Our physical bodies are limited; but that doesn't mean God's physical body is. He can do everything we can do a whole lot more. He can both have a body and still be awesome: there is no contradiction.
 

Sihopopa

Member
So even if you say God is a Spirit ... blah blah blah
If I said it, would mean nothing. Yet it was someone a little before my time; some 2000 years ago in fact, who said it (as recorded in John 4:24}; "God is a Spirit: and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
So are your thoughts, your dreams, your understanding, your moods, the words issuing out of your mouth, the software in your computer, your affection for your elephant - also all matter? Or do these not exist? Hmmmm????

Well my friend, I have zero respect for religion generally, and now you've given reason to have even less respect for yours (than others).

Most definitely - not everything is matter. A wave effectively precludes matter, so where do you intend to go from there? Sure a wave can and does move THROUGH matter, but simply CANNOT be matter - science 101 right there.

In any case, you are partially correct (but not for the reasons you might think), for the CREATOR certainly has form - as witnessed throughout his creation - his created physical evidence if you will. It's like a carpenter might create a house and then leave to work on another project. So even when he is no longer around, we see evidence of his presence in his physical representation; his intelligence, his creativity, his skill, his patience and understanding; all in the results of his work. The similarity ends there however, for the house creator certainly has a physical presence. The eternal CREATOR certainly does NOT - regardless of your 1843 error!

Well then I suppose you just so happen to be more intelligent most other scientists: Electromagnetic Radiation consists of photons which are particles of matter. But you know something different so that is fine. I won't argue.

As for thoughts, moods, and dreams: well you are agreeing with me right there. If something is not physical then it is a thought or an imagination. It doesn't actually exist but is a figment of someone's imagination. So suppose I say my Porsche is black. I have spoken the words. After I tell you you might start thinking about my black Porsche. But later you will find out that I have no black Porsche. Just because I said it and you imagined it didn't mean that it actually existed. So again I affirm, if it is not physical it does not exist. If your God is not a physical entity then he is nothing and does not exist - you have simply imagined him but you imagination will not bring him into existence. My God has a physical body. He exists, he talks, he thinks, he sees and hears. He is a living being residing in a living, physical and real realm.
 

Sihopopa

Member
When did I make the suggestion of inferiority? I merely said that God has a wife. To which you replied in a tone of unmistakable sarcasm and scorn that they have sex. Sensing your tone I then asked you whether you thought God having sex made him somehow inferior.

My opinion, just fyi, is that him having sex, eating and drinking would not make him inferior at all.

Another thing to note: after Jesus died, he was resurrected - that is he took back his body. After that he ate with the apostle and they touched him: this clearly shows that Jesus body was definitely a tangible physical body (Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.). With this same very physical body Jesus did something amazing (John 20:19 - Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.)
Did you notice what happened there? He walked into a room without using the doors. His very physical body which had been touched and felt was able to go through walls.
So you note this without recognising the consistency with what I've been saying - that the physical realm is an ILLUSION? How do your eyes not see and your mind not comprehend?


From all this we learn that having a physical body doesn't mean that one is limited in anyway. Our physical bodies are limited; but that doesn't mean God's physical body is. He can do everything we can do a whole lot more. He can both have a body and still be awesome: there is no contradiction.
There is not only a patent contradiction, but also a glaring deficiency in your grasp of logic.

And I thought you had an inclination for science, but all that evaporated in an instantaneous puff of religious smoke, huh?.

So where does this physical skydaddy that you worship reside when he (or she) is hiding from our eyes?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
So you note this without recognising the consistency with what I've been saying - that the physical realm is an ILLUSION? How do your eyes not see and your mind not comprehend?


There is not only a patent contradiction, but also a glaring deficiency in your grasp of logic.

And I thought you had an inclination for science, but all that evaporated in an instantaneous puff of religious smoke, huh?.

So where does this physical skydaddy that you worship reside when he (or she) is hiding from our eyes?

Jesus said God lives in Heaven. Since I don't believe in imaginary things I assume that there is a place - a planet if you will - where God and all his Holy Angels live which is heaven. In Doctrine and Covenants 88 :
36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
So my Father in Heaven lives in Heaven with His son Jesus Christ.
 

Sihopopa

Member
Well then I suppose you just so happen to be more intelligent most other scientists: Electromagnetic Radiation consists of photons which are particles of matter. But you know something different so that is fine. I won't argue.

As for thoughts, moods, and dreams: well you are agreeing with me right there.
I'm most certainly NOT agreeing with you. You are arguing that thoughts, moods, dreams, (then you carelessly omitted a few) your understanding, your moods, your imagination, the words issuing out of your mouth, the software in your computer, your affection for your elephant, the pain you feel when your elephant steps on your toe, and such non-physical realities do not exist! But this is clearly erroneous, for if they do not exist, then how do they prompt your very actions - every time?

If something is not physical then it is a thought or an imagination. It doesn't actually exist but is a figment of someone's imagination.
Except that imagination is REAL (or reality), rather than your sadly deficient assumption!

So suppose I say my Porsche is black. I have spoken the words. After I tell you you might start thinking about my black Porsche. But later you will find out that I have no black Porsche. Just because I said it and you imagined it didn't mean that it actually existed.
Well yes and no. Your delusion (of a physical car) was deceptive and erroneous. Nevertheless a black Porsche, even if it wasn't a physical thing certainly existed for a time in my imagination.

This is where your perception is lacking and therefore lets you down. You only accept a physical presence as reality, but if you never imagined a black Porsche in the first instance, you'd never have any chance of appreciating one, even as it ran over you in the middle of the street. This is just the way the brain works, so you'd best familiarise self with it.

Put a simpler way - you might dress yourself in the morning in (let's say) a black shirt, blue jeans and grey shoes. BUT you didn't just do all that - UNTIL you first imagined it, as well as each step in the process - in your mind. Then you made a choice to pick them out and position them on your body.

So the finished (physical) result is certainly what you see, but it would NEVER have happened in any way if your mind (which is SPIRITUAL) didn't imagine it (spiritual), design it (spiritual), make choice for it (spiritual), and then (spiritually) send out perhaps hundreds of thousands of electrical impulses to your limbs, head, neck, chest, fingers, arms, legs, toes, buttocks etc. to bring the finished product into a physical fruition. So without the spiritual REALITY to dress you, you'd still be naked and cold and poor and ashamed.

Therefore you evidently owe a lot more to what you maliciously presume non existent, than you'll ever appreciate.

So again I affirm, if it is not physical it does not exist. If your God is not a physical entity then he is nothing and does not exist - you have simply imagined him but you imagination will not bring him into existence. My God has a physical body. He exists, he talks, he thinks, he sees and hears. He is a living being residing in a living, physical and real realm.
You'd fit right in with Pharaoh and his Amen priesthood in ancient Egypt. They also knew the head god Amen, as the physical deity who dragged the sun east to west across the sky each day and west to east through the underworld each night - so he could have it ready in the east for the next morning's sunrise. Of course he had to battle with the underworld god each night - who wanted to keep the sun. Luckily Amen and his son won that fight each night, and ever since. I hope your god keep winning also - for you, that is.

Of course Moses proved all that as religious hoo-ha fallacy, but hey - you don't have to agree, right?
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Where do you get the idea I am being negative or rude?
That's all you had to say. You didn't have to say:

Read your own post. Genesis clearly says Yahweh has a body. Elsewhere Yahweh is refered to as the son of El. The Christian God being male and a father goes back to Jesus; not Constantine.​

I honestly could not find the correlation between the two statements. I don't like guessing games. (like in post #97) That is like someone handing me scripture and saying "here, you should know the truth." and I tell them, "No. Explain what you mean.. that verse can mean a tone of things. What is your point?"
--
Anyway, the only way I can see God as an actual "he" is because many Christians believe Christ is God; and, Christ is male.

God has no gender. He is a spirit. We refer to Him as He for convenience (and He is the role of authority as well--before the women's rights movement;)). If I believed in God and God was a male and humans are made out of His image, there must be a female too.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Let's take computer software as an example. When you look at a screen you may see a car. But is it a car - no it is a set of electrons and photons (and probably some other -tons) which have been arranged in a manner as to appear as a car. So all software is actually hardware - it is physical. We misleadingly call it software because it is not the kind of matter we are normally used to. But it is matter. In other words, software should not have been included in a list containing thoughts and moods. Software is real and physical - thoughts and moods are not.

Now I am not saying thoughts are not important. But what I'm saying is that thoughts on their own are meaningless. They only gain meaning and significance when they cause a physical event. By extension this means that if God is not a physical entity then he is at the same level as a thought, mood or dream. He is meaningless, formless and nothingness. So before God created the Heavens and the Earth, he himself was nothing. Remember a thought resides on a physical plain. So, for example your memories (spiritual thing - as you call it) will disappear if your brain (a physical thing) gets damaged sufficiently. So if God is not himself a physical entity, then before the creation he didn't exist since spiritual things (as you call them) need a physical place in which to live. So in other words we would be saying that a God who did not exist (since being a thought/consciousness he had no place to reside before the physical creation) created a physical world that exists. Now that is what I call ludicrous!
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Na, that's all metaphors, hands and everything, those who wrote the scriptures couldn't imagine god any other way than themselves.
That's merely conjecture. If you don't really believe the scriptures, it's a good enough answer, but if you do, it's simply a denial of what the scriptures say.
 

Sihopopa

Member
Let's take computer software as an example. When you look at a screen you may see a car. But is it a car - no it is a set of electrons and photons (and probably some other -tons) which have been arranged in a manner as to appear as a car.
WRONG! If you press on a letter on your keyboard (say an A), and almost instantly an A appears on the screen, do you think a miniature 'A' has been propelled along the wires and through the electronics until it arrives on the screen, where it is then magnifed? Is that what the screen is - just a big magnifying glass?

Perception might suggest this is what happens, and indeed if it was what happens, then you can argue all you like that the 'A' and the rest of the software is physical. But surely you realise that, despite what our eyes might suggest, apart from the microns-thick paint on the key, there is no physical 'A'.

So all software is actually hardware - it is physical.
If you say it enough times whilst believing it to be so ... well it is bound to be right, huh?

WRONG!

We misleadingly call it software because it is not the kind of matter we are normally used to. But it is matter. In other words, software should not have been included in a list containing thoughts and moods. Software is real and physical
What you are proving again and again is that when someone is bound hand, foot and heart into their religious beliefs, well it's basically a pointless waste of time to show them otherwise, for they simply cannot deal with reality or logic while they are so drilled with delusion. Hey I like you Thanda, but you are proving yourself as just a little naive.

Did I say a little???

thoughts and moods are not.
So if they are not real, why and how can they possibly control your every thought, choice and subsequent action? If you think they don't, then you sure need a crash course in consciousness.

Now I am not saying thoughts are not important.
If thoughts don't exist, then they are something like the pink unicorn with purple stripes under the cabbage leaf at the bottom of your garden. So is that how important they are?

But what I'm saying is that thoughts on their own are meaningless. They only gain meaning and significance when they cause a physical event.
But what you're choosing to ignore, is that NOTHING, zero would happen, no event would be made physical if the thought didn't come first. This in itself makes the SPIRITUAL realm the master over the physical servant, for the physical is clearly a product of the invisible SPIRITUAL realm - the same as you seek to deny in favour of your physical.

But it must be noted that you are not alone in your serious misunderstanding.

By extension this means that if God is not a physical entity then he is at the same level as a thought, mood or dream. He is meaningless, formless and nothingness. So before God created the Heavens and the Earth, he himself was nothing. Remember a thought resides on a physical plain.
No it doesn't. It's quite the opposite in fact, as I have shown you many times over. It's the physical realm that exists as a result of the SPIRITUAL (or if you prefer - thought). But you can't negotiate this due to your fascination with a physical god/creator - being just like a physical man.

So, for example your memories (spiritual thing - as you call it) will disappear if your brain (a physical thing) gets damaged sufficiently. So if God is not himself a physical entity, then before the creation he didn't exist since spiritual things (as you call them) need a physical place in which to live.
Again you have the cart before the horse, back to front. The Spiritual needs no physical place in which to live. For one thing - life (to live) is SPIRITUAL, so again - it's the physical that needs the spiritual. Secondly the Spirit is most definitely NOT A THING - as you understand the term at least. Therefore and again - God has no physicality, so is NOT and has never been a thing, in the physical sense.

So in other words we would be saying that a God who did not exist (since being a thought/consciousness he had no place to reside before the physical creation) created a physical world that exists. Now that is what I call ludicrous!
It's only your ludicrous presumption that a thought does not exist, even though you can't for a second explain why something that you argue doesn't exist controls your every waking moment and every action you ever make. You might do well to look into how the neurons in the brain are born, from prior to the birth of the individual - from where they first emerge, and how they organise themselves with astounding precision - indeed even before there is anything like a physical brain. So if thought doesn't exist, how do you think these tiny newborn cells actually think and know to organise themselves - well before the physical brain (in which to think) has formed?

But as thought (yours at least) doesn't exist, then maybe I shouldn't wait for an answer, huh?

In any case Thanda, you appear unable to bring anything new to this discussion, so I'll leave it right there, and you with your illogical and religious delusions.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Well Katzpur, I guess if it doesn't make sense TO YOU, perhaps you might consider reading it again, and maybe even again and again - until the penny drops.
Nah. My reading comprehension is just fine. It's your sentence construction that needs work. If you don't want to bother to try to clarify what it was you meant, it's no big deal to me. You're not the only person around to talk to.
 

Sihopopa

Member
That's all you had to say. You didn't have to say:

Read your own post. Genesis clearly says Yahweh has a body. Elsewhere Yahweh is refered to as the son of El. The Christian God being male and a father goes back to Jesus; not Constantine.​

I honestly could not find the correlation between the two statements. I don't like guessing games. (like in post #97) That is like someone handing me scripture and saying "here, you should know the truth." and I tell them, "No. Explain what you mean.. that verse can mean a ton of things. What is your point?"

--
Anyway, the only way I can see God as an actual "he" is because many Christians believe Christ is God; and, Christ is male.
And such is the nature of symbolism and allegory.

God has no gender. He is a spirit. We refer to Him as He for convenience
Indeed - our convenience, but also the symbolism presents as the 'head' of the family - the one who represents the family unit. This of course fails to account for the recent 'feminist' focus, yet still remains an easily understandable (even if not so readily digestible) format.

If I believed in God and God was a male and humans are made out of His image, there must be a female too.
Your 'His image' is a common error. The term 'image' comes from 'imagination', so just as you might develop an image in your mind of a fluffy kitten, His 'image' in scripture relates to the spiritual (non-physical) image developed in the spiritual (non-physical) imagination. It most certainly does NOT mean to suggest that we look like 'Him'.

On the other hand, you are quite correct that there is a female (more correctly 'mother') counterpart to 'The Father' - both of which, together result in creation - of which we are a part. Neither are physical, nor sexual, nor have any physical dimension whatsoever, other that is, than the creation for which they are responsible - which in all it's facets, is their physical representation
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
But again; it wasn't at all about attributing any gender to creation - male nor female.

Rather it was and remains entirely about the duality; the antithetical nature of our existence, indeed of all reality.

It might have presented a little better as the north/south polarities of a compass or magnet, but this wouldn't have translated so easily to a knowing Creator and an Intelligent result - being the creation; ie. man (inclusive of the female half).

So how would you explain the particulars of existence in an allegorical and inclusive manner that transcends time and levels of understanding?
'Explaining' imaginary entities is always challenging.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Except they weren't imagining God. They saw him! Exodus 33:11 - And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Now tell me, how does a man speak to his friend? Does the one friend imagine the other as being there and then talk to this imagined friend? Of course not, a man speaks to his friend by going up to him physically and talking to him in his presence.

And what would the point have been of that scripture I've just quoted if Moses did not actually see God but merely imagined him and imagined that he spoke to him? Moses would be no more special than the rest of us who have all imagined and dreamed what we think God looks like and what we think he wants us to do.

The role of a prophet is to be a witness for God. He must know there is a God and he can only know if he has actually seen him. That's why the calling of many prophets in the Bible begins with their seeing God first so that they can testify. This includes the new testament where Paul speaks to Jesus on the road to Damascus
face to face, still a metaphor.....John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time That is, God the Father, whose voice was never heard,.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
What I was responding to was Thanda's delusional suggestion that God is like a physical man, who has sex one evening with (Thanda's) physical wife god, and then after nine months a little baby god - Thanda is born. Awwwwwww, isn't he cute?
First off, Thanda never claimed to be a "baby god." Second, you're assuming Thanda is a male. Not that it's of any great importance, but I had assumed Thanda to be a female. Lastly, I don't think that Thanda would say that God was his/her physical father. That he/she was conceived as a result of his/her two mortal parents having had sex is pretty undeniable, and he/she never even suggested that God fathered her.

So if you think you can explain Thanda's illogical rants and religious delusion any better, please feel free.
I see nothing illogical about what Thanda has said. You, on the other hand, read an awful lot into it.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I knew someone would get confused :). I specifically stated in my first comment that I believe that God is male. In the same comment I said that I cannot say that he is a man. Actually I could say it but there is a reason why I prefer not to say it. When we think of men we think of many attributes some of which are vile and base like lustfulness, anger issues, oppression and abuse. In Numbers 23:19 we read "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent...". In here we learn while God created us in His image (we look like him) it does not mean that we are like him (on the inside). That is why he commands us to repent and "Be Holy even as He is Holy". So God is male but he is not a man in the sense that he is not subject to the frailties and imperfections of men (or women).

In another comment I said that I believe that God is both a male and a female - and this is where it gets complicated. While I believe God is positively a male I also believe he is not alone. I believe he has a Son (Jesus/Jehovah) and that he also has a wife: Heavenly Mother. Note carefully what is written in the Genesis chapter one. God says let us create man in our image. There are obviously other people with him. And he says he will create them male and female in Our image or "We will make them to look like we do, male and female, just like us".

As another commentator noted, the bible speaks of Seth who was the son of Adam. Yet we know that he was not just the son of Adam but the son of Adam and Eve.

And so likewise Jesus, and us, are the sons and daughters of God. But not of the Father only but also of the Mother.
Thanks for explaining. I understand what you mean now.
 
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