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Why are conjoined twins a thing?

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Psalm 139:13
(NIV)
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."

(NLV)
"You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb."

(ESV)
"For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb."

Conjoined twins -and similar -are a thing because we do not have what is necessary to correct the situation.

God does have what is necessary, and will correct the situation.

Isa 35:3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

The reason he allowed it -essentially allowing time and chance/circumstance, mistakes and misuse to adversely affect the creation -was to give us all an absolute reality check.
It is extremely harsh -but it does reveal in no uncertain terms the necessity for God -who was consistently rejected and would continue to be consistently rejected -to govern our activities and the whole creation.
It should be noted that though God allowed the situation, much of our misfortune is due to our own ways.
Some has been in ignorance -but some has been deliberate or inconsiderate of how others will be affected.

It is also a temporary situation -every last bit of which will be corrected and nullified.
Very few have lived lives without some sort of misfortune -but those who have had misfortunes will benefit from them in a spiritual sense -but they will also be healed, resurrected -and the former things will eventually no longer come into mind.

Generally, it is due to God not allowing access to the tree of life. We will be allowed access to the tree of life -which is not only eternal life, but the government necessary to maintain the entire creation -when we are of a mind to not do harm, acknowledge that such things are far beyond our capabilities and submit to the necessary government of God -which will allow for infinite creativity without conflict or such horrible situations as now exist.

Generally, the following applies to all such things.....

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Joh 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Joh 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
The Bible's answer is that all of us fit the description at Psalm 51:5; "Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin." [Or “And sinful from the moment my mother conceived me.”] I believe we are all born sinful, imperfect, and dying from the effects of our first parent's wrongdoing. Romans 5:12 explains; "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." The true God has made provision to relieve us from sin and death. Meanwhile, the effects of Adam's sin has manifested itself in horrible deformities. I believe it pains Jehovah deeply to see this suffering, but displays his mercy in allowing imperfect people to live so he might grant worthy ones everlasting life. (Romans 6:23)
Just because David and Paul have low self esteem doesn't mean I have to or anyone else does. Has it ever occurred to you they think those things because they did bad things and this is the only way they can view their guilt or that they were abused as kids or something and told they were never worth anything? After all, David was a shepherd who was away from his family because he was assumed to be too unimportant when Samuel went looking for replacements for Saul. Maybe he's a male version of Cinderella, having to do all the chores and then his fairy godfather grants him a royal title. Not sure about Paul, but given he enjoyed watching people die, I can see how people like him would assume everyone else has to be a monster like him, like when the Duggars seriously claimed all Christians bang their little kids.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
My pont is: if you are not in the situation, how does your preference to peace rather than living an autonomous life with your own head, even applies?

Because it sets a reasonable framework by which Peace would provide resolution, if not healing. Healing doesn't have to be filtered through lens of what appears to physical eyes is 'correction.'

If I see the two twins separated without any surgical event, maybe after prayer, I would consider the miracle Hypothesis.
And no, my concept of miracle is something related to the supernatural. The classical view, I guess.

Is "miracle Hypothesis" meant to explain how you understand what a miracle is?
By classical view, I'm thinking you'd go with dictionary definition. My computer's dictionary defines it as:
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency​
Does that match your understanding?

Also inside of me. I am afraid.

And yet, I currently have 95% certainty that God exists within you. So, perhaps a matter of perspective.
I would say for me it is really 100%, but I'm striving to be honest, accurate and reasonable (with where I'm at). Intellectually, I see it as 100% likelihood.

I am not certain of basically anything. I claim knowledge, not certainties. When I say things like "(I know that) gravitation always attracts classical mass", I am not certain that it is the case. I did not inspect any corner of the Universe. Scientific knowledge, for instance, does not equal scientific certainty, the latter being fast oxymoronic.

I find knowledge to be a frame of mind/reference. As this current tangent deals with apophatic theological assertions, I believe you are making such claims rhetorically. So, when you make the assertion:
"The best way to describe God is by what He is not. I just include "existent" in what he is not."

That comes across as a bunch of certainty. And with the understanding that you identify with gnostic atheism, then this would (also) be knowledge, for you.
But I find it to be lacking rationality (not void, but lacking). Given your words on "scientific knowledge," (or whenever those words appear), I wouldn't call that actual knowledge. It's educated guess, based on inference, that rests on probability; or really inductive reasoning. With spiritual knowledge, it is closer to deductive reasoning.

Truly understanding what God is not, is understanding how God exists for you. To include "existence" within that not, is either irrational (doesn't follow from the assertions) and/or debatable that there exists actual understanding of what God is not, even for you. As that debate is something I'm familiar with, I'd be interested in exploring it, but not sure if "why are conjoined twins a thing" is the thread to explore that.

So, in a nutshell, my confidence that God exists equals my confidence that Mother Goose exists. Both equally possible, and both equally plausible, given the evidence.

Again, if suggesting existence outside of you, I see the search as fruitless. I agree possible, though don't readily agree plausible. In fact, because of how strongly I disagree it is plausible, I would say it is actually highly unlikely that it is possible. Yet, conceptually both exist for you. So, there's that.

Of course not. That would be a category error. Like saying that my car likes strawberries.

I'm not sure what "of course not, that would be a category error" relates to given the point you quote.
I disagree that it is "like saying that my car likes strawberries." Instead, it is more like saying, one characteristic about my car is that it doesn't like strawberries. Or perhaps better to say, "my car is incapable of liking strawberries" and suggesting that this provides knowledge about your car.

Yet, this point originated from your assertion: He could prevent all these things.

Which isn't technically an apophatic theological assertion, as you are affirming a quality about God. I would say it is an expressed belief about God, but given your atheism, I'm thinking it is intended as a rhetorical assertion, thus easy to take with a grain of salt, understanding you don't actually believe God can prevent (whatever) as you hold to position that God doesn't even exist.

Thus we come full circle from what started this post, as it is reasonable to state/ask: My point is: if you are not knowledgeable about God, how does your preference to living an autonomous life with your own head rather than peace, even apply?

And yet, I ask that rhetorically, since I am gnostic theist that knows (with at least 95% certainly) that God('s Knowledge) exists within you. Yet given an expressed position of atheism, I feel it is a fair question.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Why ask why?

Because (actual) answers to such questions can provide meaning and purpose to whatever information is up for discussion. While other questions (i.e. who, what, when, how) are asking for (elaborate) description that is, at worst, meaningless or as is sometimes the case with scientific explanations, tautological.

Like asking: Why did the chicken cross the road?

And scientific explanation/response: because the road has an observable cross walk by which the chicken traveled, to get to the other side.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Because (actual) answers to such questions can provide meaning and purpose to whatever information is up for discussion. While other questions (i.e. who, what, when, how) are asking for (elaborate) description that is, at worst, meaningless or as is sometimes the case with scientific explanations, tautological.

Like asking: Why did the chicken cross the road?

And scientific explanation/response: because the road has an observable cross walk by which the chicken traveled, to get to the other side.
There simply may not be a why, unless you whish to personify nature.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
There simply may not be a why, unless you whish to personify nature.

Not sure if why answers require personification.

Earlier in the thread, I thought I provided example that showed how non-personification, scientific answer could provide answer of why.

Either way, I think it is a very interesting question, and might make for great discussion, in another thread. For in this one, it is about why God did it. Therefore, a reasonable inquiry given the parameters. But the discussion in this thread helped determine that in some cases (I'd argue a majority) science cannot answer questions that spirituality plausibly can. Those responses having to do with meaningful information, rather than relying on tautology to impress.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Not sure if why answers require personification.

Earlier in the thread, I thought I provided example that showed how non-personification, scientific answer could provide answer of why.

Either way, I think it is a very interesting question, and might make for great discussion, in another thread. For in this one, it is about why God did it. Therefore, a reasonable inquiry given the parameters. But the discussion in this thread helped determine that in some cases (I'd argue a majority) science cannot answer questions that spirituality plausibly can. Those responses having to do with meaningful information, rather than relying on tautology to impress.
It seems kinda awkward that God would do something that seems a mistake on purpose. The thread supposed conjoined twins is done on purpose and only then can there be a why. Otherwise then the why is more of a grand scale of things and nothing to do with day to day living and the crazy things nature comes up with.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
It seems kinda awkward that God would do something that seems a mistake on purpose. The thread supposed conjoined twins is done on purpose and only then can there be a why. Otherwise then the why is more of a grand scale of things and nothing to do with day to day living and the crazy things nature comes up with.

It's wording like the stuff I highlighted in blue that prompted me to start a thread (3 minutes ago) in the Philosophy sub-forum about 'examples of unnatural.'

In this thread, I'd say from Nature's perspective, it would seem it is not a mistake, not crazy and is what it is, like all things natural. In this thread, I would say it would take something outside of nature (arguably supernatural) to hold conceptual understanding that has any value judgment about what nature did and why.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
It's wording like the stuff I highlighted in blue that prompted me to start a thread (3 minutes ago) in the Philosophy sub-forum about 'examples of unnatural.'

In this thread, I'd say from Nature's perspective, it would seem it is not a mistake, not crazy and is what it is, like all things natural. In this thread, I would say it would take something outside of nature (arguably supernatural) to hold conceptual understanding that has any value judgment about what nature did and why.
Crazy things like how procreation works shooting a billion life cells in order to conceive. I find it hard to say something like that is with purpose, as if God chose which spermatozoon to use out of the billions. Highly unlikely.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Crazy things like how procreation works shooting a billion life cells in order to conceive. I find it hard to say something like that is with purpose, as if God chose which spermatozoon to use out of the billions. Highly unlikely.

???????
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Because it sets a reasonable framework by which Peace would provide resolution, if not healing. Healing doesn't have to be filtered through lens of what appears to physical eyes is 'correction.'

Nevertheless, I am convinced that they would rather be separated, then settle for peace. I don't know many such twins, but I know several people with bad diseases. All of them would throw their peace, if any, in the trash bin in exchange of being healthy again.

Is "miracle Hypothesis" meant to explain how you understand what a miracle is?
By classical view, I'm thinking you'd go with dictionary definition. My computer's dictionary defines it as:
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency​
Does that match your understanding?

Yes, basically. i don't like the thing about not being explanable by scientific natural laws, though. I prefer Hume definition: a miracle can be considered such when all its possible explanations are more miracolous than the event they try to explain.

For intance: Jesus miracles are not miracles, because there are several non miracolous explanation thereof. Including having been completely made up.

And yet, I currently have 95% certainty that God exists within you. So, perhaps a matter of perspective.
I would say for me it is really 100%, but I'm striving to be honest, accurate and reasonable (with where I'm at). Intellectually, I see it as 100% likelihood.

well, if God is within me, whatever that means, then God does not believe in His existence. Which sort of defeats Him being within myself.

I find knowledge to be a frame of mind/reference. As this current tangent deals with apophatic theological assertions, I believe you are making such claims rhetorically. So, when you make the assertion:
"The best way to describe God is by what He is not. I just include "existent" in what he is not."

I was kidding. I was peeking fun at apophatic theology.

That comes across as a bunch of certainty. And with the understanding that you identify with gnostic atheism, then this would (also) be knowledge, for you.
But I find it to be lacking rationality (not void, but lacking). Given your words on "scientific knowledge," (or whenever those words appear), I wouldn't call that actual knowledge. It's educated guess, based on inference, that rests on probability; or really inductive reasoning. With spiritual knowledge, it is closer to deductive reasoning.

I don't think so. Knowledge is not certainty. Is more like strong confidence. And I am not sure what spirituality has to do with deductive reasoning. I am a matematician, by profession, which means I spend most of my time with deductive reasoning. Yet, I don't feel spiritual at all.

Truly understanding what God is not, is understanding how God exists for you. To include "existence" within that not, is either irrational (doesn't follow from the assertions) and/or debatable that there exists actual understanding of what God is not, even for you. As that debate is something I'm familiar with, I'd be interested in exploring it, but not sure if "why are conjoined twins a thing" is the thread to explore that.

Again, I was kidding. Next time I will add this --> :)

Again, if suggesting existence outside of you, I see the search as fruitless. I agree possible, though don't readily agree plausible. In fact, because of how strongly I disagree it is plausible, I would say it is actually highly unlikely that it is possible. Yet, conceptually both exist for you. So, there's that.

Of course, that can mean anything. What does it mean: God is inside me? I am a complex neural network that burns 20% of my body's energetic daily budget in order to keep up. Does God need frequent intake of pizza, in order to stay inside me, too?

I'm not sure what "of course not, that would be a category error" relates to given the point you quote.
I disagree that it is "like saying that my car likes strawberries." Instead, it is more like saying, one characteristic about my car is that it doesn't like strawberries. Or perhaps better to say, "my car is incapable of liking strawberries" and suggesting that this provides knowledge about your car.

Evolution is incapable to be moral or immoral. There is nothing moral in mechanisms that affect genetic frequency in a population. The notion of morality is entirely inapplicable. To call a gene "selfish" is purely metaphorical.

Yet, this point originated from your assertion: He could prevent all these things.

I guess.

Which isn't technically an apophatic theological assertion, as you are affirming a quality about God. I would say it is an expressed belief about God, but given your atheism, I'm thinking it is intended as a rhetorical assertion, thus easy to take with a grain of salt, understanding you don't actually believe God can prevent (whatever) as you hold to position that God doesn't even exist.

Well, I can tell you that Mickey Mouse has black big ears even though I do not believe in his existence, either.

Thus we come full circle from what started this post, as it is reasonable to state/ask: My point is: if you are not knowledgeable about God, how does your preference to living an autonomous life with your own head rather than peace, even apply?

Because I am knowledgeable about God. i know He does not exist. I am gnostic atheist. So, your premise is flawed.

And yet, I ask that rhetorically, since I am gnostic theist that knows (with at least 95% certainly) that God('s Knowledge) exists within you. Yet given an expressed position of atheism, I feel it is a fair question.

Well, then again, this God's knowledge within me denies His own existence. Which is odd.

Ciao

- viole
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Nevertheless, I am convinced that they would rather be separated, then settle for peace. I don't know many such twins, but I know several people with bad diseases. All of them would throw their peace, if any, in the trash bin in exchange of being healthy again.

Debatable.
Part of that debate is understanding of peace. If reducing peace to something along lines of, acceptance of suffering, and suffering must continue, then I see it really as distortion of peace (ergo, not actual peace). Thus, I'd agree that would desired to be thrown in the trash in exchange of being healthy again. With prayer, and openness, a greater understanding (and really experience) of peace may emerge. How that looks exactly (to physical eyes) will not only vary by witnesses, but by the person perceiving own illness (within own self).

Another part of the debate is me openly disputing that all people would rather be healthy again, then have peace. I would contend that some people (myself included, at times) would rather have the perceived benefits that come with illness than the distorted version of peace. Given the stakes of the controversial assertion I'm making here, I won't be shy in furthering this point if asked, but I really think this is not all that controversial. It's almost as simple as realizing that medical doctors would be out of business if all people were healthy and that health was ongoing. A whole large (very large) segment of human society would be 'out of work' have no livelihood if that were the case, and thus dis-ease is seen as beneficial, in many ways, on many (lower) levels (of understanding).

Yes, basically. i don't like the thing about not being explanable by scientific natural laws, though. I prefer Hume definition: a miracle can be considered such when all its possible explanations are more miracolous than the event they try to explain.

For intance: Jesus miracles are not miracles, because there are several non miracolous explanation thereof. Including having been completely made up.

Okay, this helps even while I still feel it is under explained. I think the classical view of miracles is somewhat easy to relate to in that it is familiar to us.

For a long time, I held to that type of belief in miracles and occasionally I'll still use that view. When I do, I consider it erroneous.
To me, miracles are way more rationale (and natural) than the classical viewpoint. I understand them as demonstrations of Love. Not the kind of love for a person which is fleeting, but actual (unconditional) Love. While that may be perceived as simplistic, I do think when explored and understood, the ramifications are world altering. Such that healing, peace, and abundance are able to (easily and naturally) replace sickness, disorder and lack. And 'replace' isn't even, IMO, the best word, but is pretty close to accurate. I see it as more like undo the others for the illusions (or errors) in perception that they are.

well, if God is within me, whatever that means, then God does not believe in His existence. Which sort of defeats Him being within myself.

That's one way of understanding the predicament. Another is that you don't believe in your (actual) Self. (And may instead believe an illusionary self.)
To discern between what may be seen as 'two selves within one being' may be aided by forgiveness, which routinely leads to miracles.

I was kidding. I was peeking fun at apophatic theology.

Even so, you were previously supposing a lot of characteristics about God. Not just asking, but asserting.
Which to me, means you are likely kidding about atheism, but I'm guessing you don't see that self claim as humorous. The thing is, I do.

I don't think so. Knowledge is not certainty. Is more like strong confidence. And I am not sure what spirituality has to do with deductive reasoning. I am a matematician, by profession, which means I spend most of my time with deductive reasoning. Yet, I don't feel spiritual at all.

With math, I would think knowledge would be more than strong confidence. Though given our previous discussions on the .999... problem, I guess I can see how it is more like strong confidence, LOL.
Knowledge is certainty. IMO, to conclude knowledge is not certainty demonstrates that certainty, though distorts the (fundamental) claim.

Of course, that can mean anything. What does it mean: God is inside me? I am a complex neural network that burns 20% of my body's energetic daily budget in order to keep up. Does God need frequent intake of pizza, in order to stay inside me, too?

What it actually means is You are God. But if setting up self induced predicament whereby you project a whole other (illusionary) self onto your being, and take that as reality while simultaneously laying claim (distorted knowledge) that this other self does not have any aspect of it that believes in, knows of, is able to observe God within own self, then jumping to the inevitable conclusion (you are God) is likely going to be seen as too large of a leap. Or if simplistically understood, is plausibly going to lead to polytheism, for separation (the intellectual basis of the illusion) will still be perceived as 'really occurring.' At worst, you'll think you are the only God existing and all other life is entirely your making, and ought to serve your whims. Even that isn't as horrible as it could be (within illusionary framework), but is the worst I can conceive of.

God needs nothing outside of your illusionary physical left to live/survive.

God is also, in no rational way, separate from all that is Life/living, or really all that is (actually existing).
Beliefs about own physical self are, if normal, separate from all possible things and determined to be the only 'known reality' that we have evidence for.
As you've probably seen me say elsewhere, that claim rests entirely on faith. I am yet to have anyone show otherwise, and have asked for objective evidence for a good 25 years now. Thus far zero have stepped to the plate and put a ball in fair play. A few have stepped to the plate, and gone down on strikes.

Evolution is incapable to be moral or immoral. There is nothing moral in mechanisms that affect genetic frequency in a population. The notion of morality is entirely inapplicable. To call a gene "selfish" is purely metaphorical.


Wasn't sure how to respond to the first quote given what the point was that you quoted from, so I just used your (2nd) quote as rational response to the first quote.

Well, I can tell you that Mickey Mouse has black big ears even though I do not believe in his existence, either.

You don't believe in his physical existence (as an actual mouse), but your words clearly show you believe in his (conceptual) existence.

Because I am knowledgeable about God. i know He does not exist. I am gnostic atheist. So, your premise is flawed.

Your premise about knowledge is flawed. You clearly have expressed beliefs about God's existence, not all of which are God's alleged non existence.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Just because David and Paul have low self esteem doesn't mean I have to or anyone else does. Has it ever occurred to you they think those things because they did bad things and this is the only way they can view their guilt or that they were abused as kids or something and told they were never worth anything? After all, David was a shepherd who was away from his family because he was assumed to be too unimportant when Samuel went looking for replacements for Saul. Maybe he's a male version of Cinderella, having to do all the chores and then his fairy godfather grants him a royal title. Not sure about Paul, but given he enjoyed watching people die, I can see how people like him would assume everyone else has to be a monster like him, like when the Duggars seriously claimed all Christians bang their little kids.

You have more than David and Paul to attack when you question God's Word. Jesus himself spoke about God's purpose to relieve us of sin and death. Thousands of early Christians added their witness about the Christ, many sealing their witness with their death from persecutors. The witness given in the Holy Scriptures convinces me of the truthfulness of these witnesses and the certainty of God's promises being fulfilled. What is in question is how this will affect each one of us. (Matthew 25:45,46)
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I don't question God's Word. If I want God's opinion I ask Him. It doesn't make sense for Jesus to relieve us of sin and death when he wasn't around for Enoch or Elijah and they skipped death completely. It doesn't make sense for Jesus to relieve us of sin and death if we all still sin and die. I mean, you say he relieved us of sin and death and then mention people killed specifically for being Christian. I can believe in Jesus' message of compassion and Truth and love and such things without believing in the redemptive properties of being executed by angry Romans.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Conjoined twins are one of many, many things that happen because this existence is not particularly safe or fair. They are hardly convenient or fair for anyone and can be disturbing for those who expect reality for present people with fair challenges.

IMO, there is little choice but to conclude that they are unfortunate occurrences that were never meant to be. Lots of things can go wrong with the development of living beings and sometimes they do indeed go wrong. It is dangerous to assume that those were intentional or deliberate.

We should investigate the physical and biological causes and attempt to address those, certainly. But ultimately it is just another example of how things that can go wrong sometimes do.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
With math, I would think knowledge would be more than strong confidence. Though given our previous discussions on the .999... problem, I guess I can see how it is more like strong confidence, LOL.
Knowledge is certainty. IMO, to conclude knowledge is not certainty demonstrates that certainty, though distorts the (fundamental) claim.

Oh, you were that guy who thought 0.999.... Was not equal to 1? Lucky me.

One of the very few instances where I can prove deductively and inescapably, that the knowledge of God is, or was, I hope, not within you. :)

Assuming that God knows some math, of course.

Ciao

- viole
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Oh, you were that guy who thought 0.999.... Was not equal to 1? Lucky me.

One of the very few instances where I can prove deductively and inescapably, that the knowledge of God is, or was, I hope, not within you. :)

Assuming that God knows some math, of course.

Ya know I still think it, and still don't see the other side as explaining it well.
Try as they might. I truly see it as unresolved, but like many other things, some people just rather have an easy answer even if not exactly accurate.
But hey, if still wanting to try and convince me, feel free to bring up that thread again and I'll join you there.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Ya know I still think it, and still don't see the other side as explaining it well.
Try as they might. I truly see it as unresolved, but like many other things, some people just rather have an easy answer even if not exactly accurate.
But hey, if still wanting to try and convince me, feel free to bring up that thread again and I'll join you there.

C'mon. You know it is not unresoved at all. For sure it is not on Hilbert's list of the unresolved Millenium problems :)

In any case, the fact that we do not agree, entails logically that at least one of us does not have God's knowledge within. Assuming that God knows the answer.

Ciao

- viole
 
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