Why are Evengelists worried about me??

[Nanda]

As a former missionary, I'll have to disagree. For me and many others I know, at least, it wasn't about the numbers.

So you weren't trying to teach people about your religion. Sure.

 

[nutshell]

So you weren't trying to teach people about your religion. Sure.

You stated:

To get as many people as possible to learn about their religion.

Teaching people about my religion (which I did) is not the same as getting "as many people as possible to learn about the religion."

 

[Nanda]

Teaching people about my religion (which I did) is not the same as getting "as many people as possible to learn about the religion."

If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not trying to reach as many people as they can, why bother sending out missionaries at all? Why all the commercials? You honestly don't think they're trying to reach as big an audience as they can? You don't think, in the terms of eternal salvation, that it would be better, by their viewpoint, to reach as many people as possible? This isn't a criticism, nutshell; I understand the intentions here, but let's be honest.

 

[nutshell]

If the Church of Latter Day Saints is not trying to reach as many people as they can, why bother sending out missionaries at all? Why all the commercials? You honestly don't think they're trying to reach as big an audience as they can? You don't think, in the terms of eternal salvation, that it would be better, by their viewpoint, to reach as many people as possible? This isn't a criticism, nutshell; I understand the intentions here, but let's be honest.

Correction: It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You are creating a strawman. You originally stated that "all missionaries" are doing it for the numbers. Now you are saying it's the Church.

In either case, I believe they are NOT doing it for the numbers.

From the missionary standpoint, I know I wasn't.

From the Church standpoint, the Church has actually increased its standards for who can go on missions, which (I believe) has led to a smaller missionary force. The Church has also made agreements with countries not to proselytize.

That's the honest answer.

 

[Nanda]

You are creating a strawman. You originally stated that "all missionaries" are doing it for the numbers. Now you are saying it's the Church.

You're creating a strawman. I didn't say they were doing it "for the numbers," I said they were trying to spread the word to as many people as possible; there's a difference. I'm not imagining some elder sitting in a room with lists and tallys saying "Well, lookie here! More and more converts! We're winning!" which is what you seem to be implying, I'm simply stating that the goal of a missionary is to spread the word far and wide.

 

[nutshell]

You're creating a strawman. I didn't say they were doing it "for the numbers," I said they were trying to spread the word to as many people as possible; there's a difference. I'm not imagining some elder sitting in a room with lists and tallys saying "Well, lookie here! More and more converts! We're winning!" which is what you seem to be implying, I'm simply stating that the goal of a missionary is to spread the word far and wide.

I'm sorry - it seems I misunderstood.

However, I still argue that it isn't the goal of a missionary to spread the word far and wide.

We might just be in disagreement.

 

[ladybug83]

Post by Mr. Peanut: Perhaps the concern may be that one may begin trusting in their own goodness, deeds for God, church, etc. instead of simply trusting Christ and forgetting they were freely justified from all things, relying on a religious system instead of, or maybe in addition to, Christ?

Mr. Peanut, I'm not sure what you mean... You think trusting Christ is all people need to achieve a well-to-do spot in the afterlife (heaven; the celestial, terestrial, or telestial kingdom; whichever you believe)?
Back to Madhatter's post, I agree with many of the responses made on the first page. I think it has a lot to do with which belief is the right one. Although there are various Christian religions, they each have their own distinct set of principles and ordinances, and if you believe in one you can't believe in another. If you believe yours is the right and true Church, all others have to be wrong and false. With that said, it seems the evangelist was just being a good missionary: she just wanted you to understand the truth according to her belief.
Personally, I'm sure we'll all make it up there. We'll all have a chance to understand the true gospel after death and then given a choice as to whether or not we want to follow it. And since I go by LDS beliefs, anyone who was ignorant to the gospel during life and chooses not to accept it afterwards will have it no worse (in the afterlife) than they have it now. Even the smallest degree of glory--the telestial kingdom--is far better than Outer Darkness, and like someone had already mentioned, it's only for folks who made a covenant with God and broke it (and never repented afterwards).

 

[Nanda]

I'm sorry - it seems I misunderstood.

However, I still argue that it isn't the goal of a missionary to spread the word far and wide.

We might just be in disagreement.

That's quite alright. I think we got things a bit mixed up because, as I see it now, you're talking about the individual missionary, where as I'm talking about the whole of missionary work. As an individual missionary, I'm sure you were more focused on the individuals you reached, and not necissarily how many you reached. But I still stand by the assertion that the purposes of missionaries is to spread religion as far as it will go. Otherwise, why have them?

 

[nutshell]

Returning to the OP: Why should she be concerned for maddy or any LDS:

Because the Jesus you believe in is different than hers.

Her Jesus: God, the Creator of all who came to the world in the flesh to save those who believe his grace is sufficient.

Your Jesus: The first product of a sexual union between God and one of his many spirit baby-making wives, the brother of Satan, who came to this earth as the result of a sexual union between God and the Virgin Mary and who died on the cross (but LDS don't accept the cross) and offered grace only to those who work for it because they don't think Christ's sacrifice was enough.


Get it now, dude?

Of course, her belief about LDS beliefs is wrong, but she doesn't know that. From her point of view, we're wacked out and haven't been "saved."

 

[madhatter85]

Mr. Peanut, I'm not sure what you mean... You think trusting Christ is all people need to achieve a well-to-do spot in the afterlife (heaven; the celestial, terestrial, or telestial kingdom; whichever you believe)?
Back to Madhatter's post, I agree with many of the responses made on the first page. I think it has a lot to do with which belief is the right one. Although there are various Christian religions, they each have their own distinct set of principles and ordinances, and if you believe in one you can't believe in another. If you believe yours is the right and true Church, all others have to be wrong and false. With that said, it seems the evangelist was just being a good missionary: she just wanted you to understand the truth according to her belief.
Personally, I'm sure we'll all make it up there. We'll all have a chance to understand the true gospel after death and then given a choice as to whether or not we want to follow it. And since I go by LDS beliefs, anyone who was ignorant to the gospel during life and chooses not to accept it afterwards will have it no worse (in the afterlife) than they have it now. Even the smallest degree of glory--the telestial kingdom--is far better than Outer Darkness, and like someone had already mentioned, it's only for folks who made a covenant with God and broke it (and never repented afterwards).

good post, though, technically, the bit abotu outer Darkness goes deper than that.

In order to obtain outer darkness, you must have made it to a point in your life where you can obtain the celestial kingdom and become exalted. only then after you deny all those things which you have seen and heard and know for a surety that theya re true can you become a son of perdition. and only son's of perdition will obtain outer darkness. I think it was brigham youn and Joseph F Smith that both taught "In order to become a devil, you must have had the knowledge to become a God."

 

[*Paul*]

I dont see why you can't understand why we would be concerned about you, in our minds you are going to face the Judgement of a completely Holy God who will not acquit guilty trangressors of His Law and be judged according to your own merits as to where you will spend eternity.
We know that you are not perfect and that is what God commands and demands of you, your faith is diverted from God through Christ alone to your mormon baptism , your obedience and "all you can do" and possibly even your belonging to the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Your trust in those things belongs to God through Christ alone and He wont settle for less.

 

[Katzpur]

We know that you are not perfect and that is what God commands and demands of you, your faith is diverted from God through Christ alone to your mormon baptism , your obedience and "all you can do" and possibly even your belonging to the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Your trust in those things belongs to God through Christ alone and He wont settle for less.

So God has a problem with baptism, obedience and church membership? If we rely on Jesus Christ's atonement to enable us to be forgiven of our sins and live forever in God's presence, we somehow offend him by trying to do what we believe He wants us to do? Somehow that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me.

 

[*Paul*]

So God has a problem with baptism, obedience and church membership?

IS that what I said? It is when you trust and faith lies in these things that there is a problem, even only a bit of it.
It is faith alone Katzpur.

 

[Azakel]

*Points at MH title*

It's because you're a Heretic ^_^ Don't worry I'm there with you.

note: I'm joking here.

 

[Katzpur]

IS that what I said?

More or less. You said that baptism, obedience and membership in a church divert my faith from Jesus Christ to something else. I say that these things are evidence of my faith and can only strengthen it.

It is when you trust and faith lies in these things that there is a problem, even only a bit of it. It is faith alone Katzpur.

I have two questions for you, Paul:

(1) Must that faith be a living faith, or is a dead faith just as good? In other words, is the statement, "Faith without works is dead," true or is it false?

(2) Do you believe that we will be judged "according to our works"? If so, what does that mean to you?

 

[Sola*5]

More or less. You said that baptism, obedience and membership in a church divert my faith from Jesus Christ to something else. I say that these things are evidence of my faith and can only strengthen it.

What we mean when we say that is not the acts in themselevs but when you make them a necessary part of being justified before God.

I have two questions for you, Paul:
(1) Must that faith be a living faith, or is a dead faith just as good? In other words, is the statement, "Faith without works is dead," true or is it false?

Faith without works isn't true faith - we all believe that. True faith in Christ justifies though before we do any good work at all but then shows itself in good works. Faith does not need works to survive. We believe - we are justified before God - we go and do good works to be justified before men.
The faith of devils that James describes means - We believe there is a God - we carry on as normal. It has no effect and God's grace of regeneration is not received through it.

(2) Do you believe that we will be judged "according to our works"? If so, what does that mean to you?

For the Christian it means that the reward that they receive for the works done in the body is at this judgement, it is not a judgement to determine salvation but reward. "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus", "we have passed from death unto life", "we are justified from all things". "We shall not come into condemnation".


Sorry *Paul* I had to jump in.

 

[nutshell]

What do you say to those LDS who believe we do the works because we are saved?

In other words, I don't get baptised, go to the temple, pay my tithing, obey the Word of Wisdom, attend service, etc. to be saved, but because I am saved.

 

[Sola*5]

What do you say to those LDS who believe we do the works because we are saved?

In other words, I don't get baptised, go to the temple, pay my tithing, obey the Word of Wisdom, attend service, etc. to be saved, but because I am saved.

What are they saved from? How were they saved? when were they saved?
Does LDS theology support this? They maybe confused. Is the God they claim to be reconciled to based soley on the teachings of the apostles and prophets (the bible).

 

[nutshell]

What are they saved from?

They are saved from spiritual death, or, in other words, separation from God.

How were they saved?

They are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ - He who came to wash away the sins of those who would believe in His name.

When were they saved?

When they experienced the broken heart and contrite spirit the accompanies having faith in Jesus Christ and his Saving Grace.

Does LDS theology support this?

You bet it does.

They maybe confused.

I find that most "evangelicals" and others are usually confused about LDS teachings.

Is the God they claim to be reconciled to based soley on the teachings of the apostles and prophets (the bible)?

Yes because the Bible is God's Word. I know "evangelicals" believe their are contradictions between the Bible and LDS teachings, but they are actually one in the same.

 

[Katzpur]

What we mean when we say that is not the acts in themselevs but when you make them a necessary part of being justified before God.

Okay, let's talk about justification, just to make sure we're on the same page. I'm going to quote from the article on "Justification" in the "Encyclopedia of Mormonism" because I like how our understanding of this concept is described here. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on these two paragraphs:

"Justification is a scriptural metaphor drawn from the courts of law: a judge justifies an accused person by declaring or pornouncing that person innocent. Lukewise, God may treat a person as being 'not guilty' of sin. All mortals individually need to be justified because they fall short of perfect obedience to God, becoming 'carnal, sensual and devilish' through transgression, are 'cut off' from God, and are in jeopardly of becoming 'miserable forever.' In this plight, they of themselves cannot change their own nature to become obedient. Furthermore, they are severed from the source of the divine power that can change, or sancity, them.

However, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, when men, women, or children have faith in Jesus, are truly penitent, call upon His name, and are baptized, they become eligible for the redeeming grace extended through Jesus Christ. In this sense they become justified. This is given as a gift by grace, since fallen man must rely 'alone upon the merits of Christ'. The faith by which one receives this grace manifests itself in an active determination to follow Christ in all things. It is demonstrated by obedience to the commandments to repent and be baptized, followed by a life of submission, obedience, and service to God and others."

Faith without works isn't true faith - we all believe that. True faith in Christ justifies though before we do any good work at all but then shows itself in good works. Faith does not need works to survive. We believe - we are justified before God - we go and do good works to be justified before men.

I'm unclear as to why it is necessary to be justified before men. Could you explain that? I understand that "faith shows itself in good works," but it seems to me that it would have to follow that a lack of faith would also show itself in a lack of commitment to follow Jesus' example? Regardless of whether works follow faith or visa versa, they are intrinsically linked. I don't believe it is possible to have faith in Christ without being faithful to Him. I would say that a person who claims to have faith in Christ and yet lives a life contrary to how Christ told us to live, really doesn't have faith in Christ at all, and is no better off than the person who makes no claim to believe.

The faith of devils that James describes means - We believe there is a God - we carry on as normal. It has no effect and God's grace of regeneration is not received through it.

Please comment on Jesus' teaching: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Are you saying that doing the will of our Father in Heaven has no bearing on entering into the kingdom of heaven? If it doesn't, what did Jesus mean by this statement?

For the Christian it means that the reward that they receive for the works done in the body is at this judgement, it is not a judgement to determine salvation but reward. "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus", "we have passed from death unto life", "we are justified from all things". "We shall not come into condemnation".

If salvation is not the reward, what is? It sounds as if you're saying that we will not be saved by our works, but rewarded for them. If I'm right, and that is what you're saying, I would agree. But I'm not sure I am.