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Why are Jehovah's Witnesses reluctant to discuss their faith?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Attacking my beliefs serves no valid purpose to support your claims.

Asking you questions, is ‘attacking your beliefs’?

As I state earlier, that is not my intent.

i just want to know where you’re coming from… how you reconcile your beliefs, one with the other. I.e., scientific with religion of Christianity.

Science, as you’re well aware, promotes natural methodologies as the source of the order we observe.., all matter.
Whereas Christianity, accepting the Bible as it’s source of information (as Jesus did), promotes God not just as a higher power but as the Creator.

Somewhere, the two concepts are going to clash!

i don’t want to hurt you in any way.
I consider you a friend… I don’t want to ruin that.

So no answer is required by me.
So long
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have not failed to own up to my religion and beliefs. In fact, I have held to my beliefs and they guide me to honestly, objectively and careful observe the Work of God and to learn how to study it, understand it and share that knowledge. I don't lie to myself out of blind adherence to the doctrines of man and pretend evidence doesn't exist or that reasonable conclusions must be ignored for no good reason.

The thing is, my beliefs are not the subject here and they shouldn't be if the discussion is honest and the point is to support and explain the claims that are the subject here.

Twisting this to be about me and what I believe just doesn't seem right to me. It isn't a part any Christian teaching I ever received.
Actually, our religious beliefs should not be incompatible with scientific beliefs, should they? Otherwise, there is a severe dichotomy, imo. Since the Bible speaks of creation of the heavens and the earth, it does not go into detail except to speak about the various kinds. And the earth being basically devoid and uninhabited before God made the elements right for life to develop. (Question -- how did Moses know these things? Even evolution teaches the earth was not inhabited by humans and fishes, etc. before things began growing.) These kinds such as fishes, land animals, flying creatures, and humans are said to be inclusive of those categories. When I was in school I was taught evolution, not creation. I did not really study the Bible until I was in my adult years. I find no evidence to refute the order of creation in the Bible account. (Evolution yes, goes against the basic attitude of the Bible which says that God created the different kinds, or distinct forms of life. Evolution says it all happened more or less automatically by chemical reaction, or natural selection. Again -- to claim that the various forms developed by chemical or survival of the fittest is not in harmony with what the Bible says, although no details are given beyond the basics there, which do not agree with evolution in theory.)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If I were an atheist, a Buddhist, a Muslim, or...whatever, it has no more relevance to advancing your claims any more than the fact of my Christianity does. Turning the discussion to me is wrong. Attacking my beliefs serves no valid purpose to support your claims.

What am I supposed to do when you cannot support your claims or refuse to answer questions you don't like and can't answer and turn to attacking my beliefs as a response? Am I supposed to whither away? Deny my understanding of science or even that the evidence exists? Pretend you haven't made errors or drawn conclusions based solely on doctrine rather than facts?

Personally, I think you have a lot to think about and consider in how you conduct yourselves. I haven't insinuated smarmy little claims about your Christianity through doubtful questions that are irrelevant to the topic of discussion.
It does not seem consistent or logical if a person claims to be a member of a religion, but does not believe what the religion is based on. This is one reason why I wonder how a person reasons things out sometimes. I respect you and hope the best for you.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
To be a scientist, or researcher in a scientific field does not mean he accurately purports imaginings as to what happened as to how the universe began or how life was formed on the earth. Some might imagine what happened in writing thesis or papers, but it does not mean these declarations are correct.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
What is logical to believe, that unguided, unintelligent processes can create novel patterns of functional design?
Before I go, I want to address this.

The evidence indicates that natural environmental processes drive change in living things over time. There is no evidence that natural process are manipulated in any way by any higher intelligent agency. No one has provided such evidence. Is it wrong to admit that fact or, in other words, is it wrong to admit that truth?

Is it logical to insist that others throw out their knowledge and understanding and accept the religious doctrines of man that demand that they reject anything that does not comply with that doctrine?
Or have we discovered, in so many fields of science other than biology, that whenever we observe functional information, an intelligent entity obviously created it?
Is it genuine to purposefully be so covert about describing those "many fields of science" and attempt to allude that these fields hold evidence that points to a designer when they do not? You are talking about sciences that study PEOPLE or the historical works of PEOPLE. We know that people have intelligence, sometimes they use it and often create things. What you are pointing out is that people are known to be intelligent and to create, but it is a non sequitur to conclude this as evidence of something unseen and unevidenced.
Always an intelligence. Never has it ever been observed that novel functional information arose through natural methods.
This is false. Snowflakes show no evidence of being designed. Natural waterways show no evidence for being designed other than by the forces of nature. Natural populations of living things do not show evidence of being designed or the past or present actions of a designer. The only populations that show design are in agriculture and we didn't make them, we just mimic nature to favor traits in those species that are useful to us.

Surely, you are not ignorant of these facts given your claims of studying all these things so deeply.
Therein lies the precedence in recognizing the origin of functional design. Except in biology….

??
Again, is it genuine to covertly refer to the known creative ability of people and imply the existence of something you have no evidence for and is not objectively known? Isn't that like saying that because so many people like something or agree with it, it must be good or true or right?

Is it right to claim that science is represented to purposefully reject a designer as the answer when it is widely and well known that science can't be used to claim as fact or explain things that have no evidence?

Is it right to make claims and when those claims are challenged, divert the topic to an irrelevant attack on the beliefs of your challenger to avoid supporting your claims or admitting that the challenger has a point?

You did mention that you have been called disingenuous. I'm just asking questions about things that might lead others to think that in order to help you understand how that might have come up.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have not failed to own up to my religion and beliefs. In fact, I have held to my beliefs and they guide me to honestly, objectively and careful observe the Work of God and to learn how to study it, understand it and share that knowledge. I don't lie to myself out of blind adherence to the doctrines of man and pretend evidence doesn't exist or that reasonable conclusions must be ignored for no good reason......
Exactly. And that is why I have examined to the best of my ability what scientists say about the theory of evolution and the origin of the universe. And I have come, after considerable discussion and research, to recognize the Bible as a divine declaration of men inspired of the true God and not leaning on the opinions of men.
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16.
I want to thank you, Dan, for your discussion, truthfully.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Asking you questions, is ‘attacking your beliefs’?

As I state earlier, that is not my intent.

i just want to know where you’re coming from… how you reconcile your beliefs, one with the other. I.e., scientific with religion of Christianity.

Science, as you’re well aware, promotes natural methodologies as the source of the order we observe.., all matter.
Whereas Christianity, accepting the Bible as it’s source of information (as Jesus did), promotes God not just as a higher power but as the Creator.

Somewhere, the two concepts are going to clash!

i don’t want to hurt you in any way.
I consider you a friend… I don’t want to ruin that.

So no answer is required by me.
So long
How I reconcile my beliefs is not your business and certainly not fodder for your attacks. It is not relevant and I believe you know that. I cannot think of any valid reason why that information would support your claims?

I question friendship of people that so easily turn to personal attacks to divert from their failure to support their claims or questions about those claims that they cannot answer.

I just have come not to believe you regarding any congeniality or claims of it.

I think I have said what is important and I know where you stand and that no evidence or reason seems to be enough to shake your obedience to a doctrinal position.

So long.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Before I go, I want to address this.

The evidence indicates that natural environmental processes drive change in living things over time. There is no evidence that natural process are manipulated in any way by any higher intelligent agency. No one has provided such evidence. Is it wrong to admit that fact or, in other words, is it wrong to admit that truth?
Sorry to get involved, but the Bible obviously does not go into great detail about how God made things. It does, however, describe a certain order. I also want to leave you with the thought that as for gorillas, bonobos, chimps and the like, it is posited that there was a common ancestor, but as of yet, no significant declaration of what it was. And still gorillas remain gorillas, and insects remain insects. There's more, but I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks again, Dan, you have been very pleasant to talk with.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How I reconcile my beliefs is not your business and certainly not fodder for your attacks. It is not relevant and I believe you know that. I cannot think of any valid reason why that information would support your claims?

I question friendship of people that so easily turn to personal attacks to divert from their failure to support their claims or questions about those claims that they cannot answer.

I just have come not to believe you regarding any congeniality or claims of it.

I think I have said what is important and I know where you stand and that no evidence or reason seems to be enough to shake your obedience to a doctrinal position.

So long.
I no longer think it's a doctrinal position but rather reality and truth to say that there is no real evidence for the theory of evolution except in the minds of those that use whatever evidence of life and previous life to say it means these forms evolved. There is no real evidence to prove that. And of course, there is no proof in science, so we leave it at that.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Snowflakes show no evidence of being designed. Natural waterways show no evidence for being designed other than by the forces of nature. Natural populations of living things do not show evidence of being designed or the past or present actions of a designer.
Do snowflakes exhibit design? Yes. A natural design, granted. Now, do they function? No. No more than any other water.
“Populations” of termites & their mounds (I was trying think of something that might support your “natural design” view)…. There’s a function, more than just a home: they way they’re built, it actually aids in the flow of air, acting like an air conditioner… but that is through instinct. You may wish to believe that such evolved, but there’s nothing but subjective language - like “may have happened”, “likely”, etc - presented in scientific papers. How does instinct, evolve, then? Without resorting to “maybe”s.
Is it right to claim that science is represented to purposefully reject a designer as the answer when it is widely and well known that science can't be used to claim as fact or explain things that have no evidence?
But the life sciences do reject a designer (not all the sciences, thankfully), saying organisms have an “appearance of design” (per Dawkins)… and such explanations supporting natural methodologies are presented as fact.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Actually, our religious beliefs should not be incompatible with scientific beliefs, should they? Otherwise, there is a severe dichotomy, imo.
You are Exactly right!
Science has made the rupture, the incompatibility.
Someday soon, it’ll be remedied.
IMO.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@Hockeycowboy ...and here you have it... the reason I don't talk to Dan, and then he wonders why.
It's so blatant.

How dare you speak for me. And with such malicious error in your claim.
He actually told me what I just said.
If I called his statement hypocritical, it would be a crime - the worst sin, but he can call my statement malicious... although it's not, as I am only stating what he himself said to me.

I could not quote him so I just make reference.
If one just says they believe in God, without evidence - they just believe, what is that? It certainly involves blind belief.
Hence why I made this thread - Just Believe.

I think you may be beating a dead horse. I don't think you will get a logical or reasonable response to your question. It is my conclusion that you will get nothing more than just blind adherence to doctrine.
Imagine that. Just one post after, saying that I attacked him. Shaking my head
He can talk about you, and make implications about your religion, but to him, it's so sinful - the worst crime ever, for you to even question him about anything related to his religion... much less say anything about him.
Wow. It's so blatant.

It's only through becoming a mod that Dan escaped my ignore list, and unfortunate for me, I have to see his posts.
Oh wait. I don't have to read them. :D
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
You so badly want an answer, so here it is:

You’re envisioning an extreme improbability…

If I felt JW’s were deliberately misleading people in any way… so let’s say in evolution….I would leave willingly, I wouldn’t have to “meet” with anyone.

I would just **stop going**. (Unfortunately, some have just left, and we never see them again.)

Nobody has to meet with anyone.

That’s the course I would take. I would become what is termed “inactive”, with no bad repercussions resulting (except for my relationship with Jehovah God. [You probably can’t even fathom that. Hopefully some day.])

I know this is not what you were expecting to hear, but it’s the course I would take.

That truthfully answers your question.
I don't see how one can think it makes sense to stick with something you don't believe, or even insist you be in association with a group who believes something you don't believe.
Any person that thinks a religious group is not teaching the truth, and wants to remain with them, can't be serious about worship, God, or truth.
They are just fooling themselves.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@Dan From Smithville , are you aware I’ve been accused of ignorance, or willful disingenuousness?
Don't be taken in by the ruse.
When a person says that your religion blinds you, and is the reason you reject science, they are attacking your religion - your beliefs.
They make the discussion a matter of your religion... which has nothing to do with the subject.
I can play :innocent: too, but it's up to you, to see through that.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
You so badly want an answer, so here it is:

You’re envisioning an extreme improbability…

If I felt JW’s were deliberately misleading people in any way… so let’s say in evolution….I would leave willingly, I wouldn’t have to “meet” with anyone.

I would just **stop going**. (Unfortunately, some have just left, and we never see them again.)

Nobody has to meet with anyone.

That’s the course I would take. I would become what is termed “inactive”, with no bad repercussions resulting (except for my relationship with Jehovah God. [You probably can’t even fathom that. Hopefully some day.])

I know this is not what you were expecting to hear, but it’s the course I would take.

That truthfully answers your question.
Two things....

First, I find it very revealing that you still can't answer the actual question I asked and instead you changed it to a different scenario. Obviously this is a very sensitive subject for Jehovah's Witnesses.

Second, your reply does however indicate that were a Witness to change their mind on evolution and the flood, they would indeed have to leave the faith, either on their own or via excommunication. That's important because it confirms what I've been trying to establish, i.e., that one cannot be an "evolutionist" and a Jehovah's Witness.

And that leads to the second part, namely how you leaving the faith (or being kicked out) would affect your relationships with your Witness friends and family. Can you describe how that would change?

Finally, do you agree with this from JW.org? "If evolution is true, life has no lasting purpose"?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I think you may be beating a dead horse. I don't think you will get a logical or reasonable response to your question. It is my conclusion that you will get nothing more than just blind adherence to doctrine.
Hence this thread. :)

If a Christian that accepts science only gets personal attacks on character and belief when asking for the evidence that is claimed to exist and to have been deeply studied, but never offered, I doubt you will fare any better.
It's interesting because one JW here did answer my question and did so in pretty explicit terms. She confirmed that a Witness who acknowledged UCA and human/primate common ancestry would be seen as a "rotten piece of fruit" and a person who was "spreading poison". At least she was honest and open.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
It might. And it would depend on circumstances. The thing is, if a person got baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, that makes a statement as to what he as one of Jehovah's Witnesses professes to believe. If he decides later on that he no longer believes what the Bible says it depends on circumstances if he is to remain one. The Bible speaks of false Christians too. I am so glad I learned more about the science of Darwinistic philosophical proclamations -- pro and con by scientists.
What circumstances are you referring to?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are Exactly right!
Science has made the rupture, the incompatibility.
Someday soon, it’ll be remedied.
IMO.
So clear. But let's see -- those believing in the certainty of evolution as explained by most who do believe, also believe this life is all there is. So that's the way it is.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Hence this thread. :)


It's interesting because one JW here did answer my question and did so in pretty explicit terms. She confirmed that a Witness who acknowledged UCA and human/primate common ancestry would be seen as a "rotten piece of fruit" and a person who was "spreading poison". At least she was honest and open.
That is how I feel treated by the JWs in the discussions about evolution. Instead of responding to my questions or points, the subject is diverted (often quickly) to how can I be a Christian and see things the way I do. Completely irrelevant to creationist or JW arguments for a literal Genesis version of reality as opposed to one built on the evidence. But it is a frequent turn of the discussion. I see it as a diversion and a means to shake me off. As if you cannot believe in God and accept the evidence and rational conclusions regarding that evidence and that makes you somehow tainted and not a real believer.

It's tiresome. It's insulting. It is unkind. It isn't true.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
…one cannot be an "evolutionist" and a Jehovah's Witness.

There are standards, which I’m happy to support. If I unrepentantly committed adultery, or unrepentantly stole from another person, I would be in the same boat.


Why would I want to ruin my relationship with Jehovah God by denying Him as the Creator? (I realize, unfortunately, that you probably can’t grasp this fact.)


This is the real issue that would result. Even if I kept my feelings hid, Jehovah God would know.


Now, I notice you’ve ignored my questions:

1) Do you know where I stand on evolution, iow, how much of it I do accept? (Quite a bit, probably more than you think.) If you’ve read the explanation I provided of “every plant yielding seed”, mentioned in Genesis 1:29, that would give you some idea.


2)You do agree that life is ‘complex‘?


3) What is your evidence supporting how these complex, novel phenotypes arose by mindless, undirected natural methods?


4) Have you read- and agree with - any of Gerd Müller’s papers referencing the explanatory deficits of the MS?


5) You claimed I ‘avoid it, whenever you bring it [Behe agreeing with CD evolution] up’. (As if you have many times.) When did you ever mention it?
 
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