Why are we allowed to suffer?

[URAVIP2ME]

In a way I believe that Lucifer was more honest that god.
Because he did not was us to live through control. God only wants control.

If God only wanted control, then Adam would have No free-will choices as whether to break God's Law or not.
God gave Adam and Eve a 'well regulated' (Not controlled) environment in which to live and thrive (aka Eden)
God even let Adam name the animals according to Genesis 2:19-20

If Satan was more honest, then wouldn't Eve still be alive today ?
True, we are to live by the Golden Rule, but isn't that good for everyone on Earth ?

According to Scripture, Satan was Not tempted (controlled) to do wrong. Satan was Not persecuted, rather Satan failed in showing love ( Golden Rule )
On the other hand, Jesus was tested under new or different difficult circumstances of suffering, which shows Jesus is perfect for his position as our Agent for gaining life forever.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That doesn't answer my question. The fact that people are different doesn't explain what causes a specific difference.
As I see it, this difference is a direct consequence of nature and nurture, in which case by changing any of them ( or both ) we can influence how an individual turns out.
In other words, it is possible to make it so people don't experience suffering.

Perhaps lobotomies. I'll get a saw. On a more serious note I believe that is what the born again experience is about. Making a new kind of human. I'm also of the opinion that a whole new nature of the universe is in order. I believe that it is incumbent on this reality to produce suffering just as much as joy. They are interconnected. In order for one to exist the other must exist as well. It's the yin and the yang of it all.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Your ^above ^ post reminds me of the man Asaph found at Psalms 73
Asaph's perception was that there are unworthy ones who prosper while others do not - Psalms 73:12-13
Whether under adverse conditions as Job was (Job 2:4-5) or not, Asaph concluded we should draw close to God - Psalms 73:26-28

It's all vanity and vexation of the spirit.

 

[Koldo]

Perhaps lobotomies. I'll get a saw. On a more serious note I believe that is what the born again experience is about. Making a new kind of human. I'm also of the opinion that a whole new nature of the universe is in order. I believe that it is incumbent on this reality to produce suffering just as much as joy. They are interconnected. In order for one to exist the other must exist as well. It's the yin and the yang of it all.

You have failed so far to show that to be the case.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's all vanity and vexation of the spirit.

- Ecclesiastes 1:2
- Ecclesiastes 1:14
- Ecclesiastes 2:1
- Ecclesiastes 2:11
- Ecclesiastes 2:15-17,19
- Ecclesiastes 2:21-23,26
- Ecclesiastes 3:19
- Ecclesiastes 4:4
- Ecclesiastes 4:7-8
- Ecclesiastes 4:16
- Ecclesiastes 5:10,7
- Ecclesiastes 6:2
- Ecclesiastes 6:9-11
- Ecclesiastes 7:6
- Ecclesiastes 8:10,14
- Ecclesiastes 9:9
- Ecclesiastes 11:8-10
- Ecclesiastes 12:8
- Ecclesiastes 12:12-14

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You have failed so far to show that to be the case.

Yet since suffering is a perception we only perceive things because of their differences. Let's take your scenario where there are only degrees of happiness. As soon as there is one instance of greater happiness then there is immediately a case of lesser happiness. It is inevitable that someone will perceive the lesser state of happiness as suffering especially since merriam-webster.com has a definition of suffering as, "to become worse because of being badly affected by something."

 

[sandy whitelinger]

- Ecclesiastes 1:2
- Ecclesiastes 1:14
- Ecclesiastes 2:1
- Ecclesiastes 2:11
- Ecclesiastes 2:15-17,19
- Ecclesiastes 2:21-23,26
- Ecclesiastes 3:19
- Ecclesiastes 4:4
- Ecclesiastes 4:7-8
- Ecclesiastes 4:16
- Ecclesiastes 5:10,7
- Ecclesiastes 6:2
- Ecclesiastes 6:9-11
- Ecclesiastes 7:6
- Ecclesiastes 8:10,14
- Ecclesiastes 9:9
- Ecclesiastes 11:8-10
- Ecclesiastes 12:8
- Ecclesiastes 12:12-14

You really know your concordance.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You really know your concordance.

Since the Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is, then it's helpful to have a comprehensive concordance putting Bible words in alphabetical order.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Since the Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is, then it's helpful to have a comprehensive concordance putting Bible words in alphabetical order.

Indeed. Here a little there a little. Line upon line. Precept upon precept.

 

[Koldo]

Yet since suffering is a perception we only perceive things because of their differences. Let's take your scenario where there are only degrees of happiness. As soon as there is one instance of greater happiness then there is immediately a case of lesser happiness. It is inevitable that someone will perceive the lesser state of happiness as suffering especially since merriam-webster.com has a definition of suffering as, "to become worse because of being badly affected by something."

Please do consider that such a dictionary is descriptive when it provides the definition of 'suffering'.
Clearly when I talk about 'suffering' on this topic I am not using a definition that would, in an hypothetical world, make this term mean the same as 'lesser joy'.
'Suffering' on this topic refers to a distinct kind of unpleasant feeling.

Please do show me how 'suffering' has to exist for 'happiness' to exist. On what basis can you substantiate this claim ?

 

[Pudding]

I am asking this question if there really is an eternal blissful afterlife. I personally am agnostic and don't know if there is a God and an afterlife. But if there is an eternal blissful afterlife, then why aren't we all born up there where we can live forever happy and not have any suffering and misery in our lives?

Some people value suffering. But others do not and are completely miserable. They resort to suicide. There is no reason for such people to be here and suffer like that. There is everything wrong with suffering. I have struggled with depression and my life has lost all joy and meaning. You don't realize just how much my life has been taken away from me.

Some people would say that we are here to learn and grow and that suffering is for our personal learning and development. If this is so, then that is no God at all. That is no loving caring God at all. You don't realize the torment that others go through. Many have lost all joy and meaning in their lives and resort to suicide.

There is no reason for this. There is no reason for innocent people to suffer like this. They are not evil people out harming and tormenting others, so there is no need for them to be here and suffer. They should of been born in heaven (the eternal blissful afterlife) and just stayed there for all eternity where they can be forever happy and never have to be suicidal and miserable.

The only reason why I think we are here and suffer is because this universe came about through random chance and that what happens to us in life just simply happens and nothing more. That there is no grand reason for any of it.

I think that how some of those self-proclaim benevolent Gods who told those self-proclaim Gods' messengers to write books preaching to everyone then some believers of those Gods with good intentions would preach to non-believer about how benevolent and justice or perfect their Gods are, making the suffer to be justify because their Gods have "plan" for his beloved creation, some of those believer don't know how their preaching would be disturbing to some non-believer's mentality and emotion, this God game is not fun at all.

Trying to help non-believer in order not suffer anymore?
Nay, those meany preahing:
You suffer because God have plan for you... for you to learn to be happy so you can love God...
Good cannot exist without bad...
Yeh, and all the hell warning that various versions of self-proclaim benevolent Gods plan for their beloved creations, as writing in those ancient holy books, in order to save their creations from eternity burning...

Hands up for many of those invisible Gods for how perfect and efficient their "plan" are...
...in order to disturbing and make non-believer suffer more... not only threaten non-believer for eternal burning in afterlife but also make this life a sensation hell burning disturbing experience too. Those believer are right, i can really see how "benevolent" their God are now...

When will those Gods stop their self-righteous boring game and let people finally can live in peace?
Quickly make their (supposed "soon to come" but after a few thousand years yet to come) judgement day come and end their game and stop further torturing or harassing non-believer anymore and let those Gods go enjoy their nassicistic heaven themself, or, they can shut up once and for all, oi, my mistake, there is no meaning to talk to a wall. Meanwhile many "walls" still present in this world continue to disturb or harassing non-believer, well, can't really expect a perfect world will be automatically happen, nor is it logical to think like that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Indeed. Here a little there a little. Line upon line. Precept upon precept.

Interesting observation ^ above ^ because ' precept upon precept ' in Scripture gives us instructed direction in a godly course of action or moral conduct.
Mankind's history shows man has dominated man to man's hurt or injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9, thus proving Jeremiah 10:23 to be accurate that man can Not direct his step.
That is why God will have Jesus, as Prince of Peace, to step in. Step in where man can't in order to usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

 

[Koldo]

Interesting observation ^ above ^ because ' precept upon precept ' in Scripture gives us instructed direction in a godly course of action or moral conduct.
Mankind's history shows man has dominated man to man's hurt or injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9, thus proving Jeremiah 10:23 to be accurate that man can Not direct his step.
That is why God will have Jesus, as Prince of Peace, to step in. Step in where man can't in order to usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

Over 2000 years and still counting...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Over 2000 years and still counting...

We can closely count because we are now nearing the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14 because the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom has reached the ends of the Earth.
We can closely count because we are also nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, brings global Peace on Earth for those humble ' sheep'-like ones of Matthew 25:31-33,37

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Please do consider that such a dictionary is descriptive when it provides the definition of 'suffering'.
Clearly when I talk about 'suffering' on this topic I am not using a definition that would, in an hypothetical world, make this term mean the same as 'lesser joy'.
'Suffering' on this topic refers to a distinct kind of unpleasant feeling.

Please do show me how 'suffering' has to exist for 'happiness' to exist. On what basis can you substantiate this claim ?

Gee, I already have. Perhaps this is a discussion for another op about yin and yang and the nature of the universe. Thank you for a thoughtful and intelligent discussion.

 

[Koldo]

Gee, I already have. Perhaps this is a discussion for another op about yin and yang and the nature of the universe. Thank you for a thoughtful and intelligent discussion.

In what post?

 

[Super Universe]

I am asking this question if there really is an eternal blissful afterlife. I personally am agnostic and don't know if there is a God and an afterlife. But if there is an eternal blissful afterlife, then why aren't we all born up there where we can live forever happy and not have any suffering and misery in our lives?

Some people value suffering. But others do not and are completely miserable. They resort to suicide. There is no reason for such people to be here and suffer like that. There is everything wrong with suffering. I have struggled with depression and my life has lost all joy and meaning. You don't realize just how much my life has been taken away from me.

Some people would say that we are here to learn and grow and that suffering is for our personal learning and development. If this is so, then that is no God at all. That is no loving caring God at all. You don't realize the torment that others go through. Many have lost all joy and meaning in their lives and resort to suicide.

There is no reason for this. There is no reason for innocent people to suffer like this. They are not evil people out harming and tormenting others, so there is no need for them to be here and suffer. They should of been born in heaven (the eternal blissful afterlife) and just stayed there for all eternity where they can be forever happy and never have to be suicidal and miserable.

The only reason why I think we are here and suffer is because this universe came about through random chance and that what happens to us in life just simply happens and nothing more. That there is no grand reason for any of it.

Free will and so God can have a full personality and many personality experiences. God created the universe, created angels to run it, then fragmented into living beings. What remains of God is more like a computer than a being.

Suffering is not intended but it is, to some extent, expected.

Does a very loving and caring parent still have children knowing that at some point the child will probably break up with a significant other and experience being hurt? Of course.

The angels began fighting with themselves so there were many things that were supposed to happen on the earth that did not happen. Genetic diseases were supposed to be removed from our gene pool, psychopathic genes should have been removed, true God Theory was to be taught instead of the crazy mix we ended up with. The earth is definately a trial but it is a trial you can complete.

Afterlife is not eternal bliss. The earth is 1st grade, the afterlife begins at 2nd grade. Heaven is like earning your PHD in God Theory.

Life is really a very foreign and alien thing to us but we only subconciously realize it, some more than others. You have to force yourself to be happy. You have to go out and find it. Too many people expect it to just happen on it's own. They fully expect to win the lottery and get their reward now while they are on the earth.

Force the depression out of you. Go hiking in the woods. Go swim in the river. Plant flower seeds in a window planter and watch them grow. Go to a library and bring home a few books. Get a pet. You're looking for big happy things to happen to you while missing out on the very small incredible things. The universe did not have to exist at all. You have a chance to do so many things but you're current expectations are impossible, even for the universe.

Would you rather be a robot and have everything planned for you?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

If God only wanted control, then Adam would have No free-will choices as whether to break God's Law or not.
God gave Adam and Eve a 'well regulated' (Not controlled) environment in which to live and thrive (aka Eden)
God even let Adam name the animals according to Genesis 2:19-20

If Satan was more honest, then wouldn't Eve still be alive today ?
True, we are to live by the Golden Rule, but isn't that good for everyone on Earth ?

According to Scripture, Satan was Not tempted (controlled) to do wrong. Satan was Not persecuted, rather Satan failed in showing love ( Golden Rule )
On the other hand, Jesus was tested under new or different difficult circumstances of suffering, which shows Jesus is perfect for his position as our Agent for gaining life forever.

If you did become a bit more opened minded then what you have said may have been a little different. Think about it, god gave us free will but yet wants us to ask forgiveness of our sins. That is control. So in a way he does not want you to have any freedom. Also what is the point of jesus dying for our sins if we have to ask for forgiveness of our sins? When people ask god forgiveness it give god more power.

 

[dianaiad]

If you did become a bit more opened minded then what you have said may have been a little different. Think about it, god gave us free will but yet wants us to ask forgiveness of our sins. That is control. So in a way he does not want you to have any freedom. Also what is the point of jesus dying for our sins if we have to ask for forgiveness of our sins? When people ask god forgiveness it give god more power.

Question:

If you are in a classroom where the teacher has complete control over whether you pass the class or not, and has established rules and guidelines you need to follow in order to learn the subject (and therefore pass said class), does it give the teacher 'more power' to ask him to help you out, give you a hand in wiping out your goofs so that you can try the whole thing again?

Now me, I'm not going to speak for any other belief system. It's just that my own belief is that we are not only sent here to learn stuff....and learn stuff from our mistakes, but that asking for forgiveness for sins isn't giving GOD more power; He has it all anyway. Why should He require more? What it does is allow US to 'begin again," and get on with life without getting all tangled up in old mistakes. Remember them and learn from them, yes.....but not suffer eternal guilt for them.

The POINT, I believe, is for us to learn. US. Personally. On our own, internally and through our own actions and thoughts. We are not machines to be programmed, but children who learn, and eventually grow up to be our own people. We can't do that if God does everything for us.

So we are free to make many, if not most, of our own choices. Some of those choices result in great harm to others...and those who make those choices will, I believe, suffer rather nasty consequences for them. Those who are harmed can suffer nasty and more immediate consequences, yes, but if there is an afterlife, and it is as I believe it to me, those who are victimized by others will realize quickly that this harm was very temporary, and not something that lasts.

Anyway, that's what I think, for what that's worth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If you did become a bit more opened minded then what you have said may have been a little different. Think about it, god gave us free will but yet wants us to ask forgiveness of our sins. That is control. So in a way he does not want you to have any freedom. Also what is the point of jesus dying for our sins if we have to ask for forgiveness of our sins? When people ask god forgiveness it give god more power.

Isn't the reason of asking forgiveness for wrongs committed ( against God or neighbor ) to show we want to live by the Golden Rule.
We all have the ' freedom to act responsibly' toward God and neighbor.

There is also the point of Jesus dying for our sins because we can reach a point of no return - Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26
Remember: Jesus' ransom covers MANY, Matthew 20:28 does Not say All.
Any who want to bring ruin to Earth ( literal or moral ) will be brought to ruin - Revelation 11:18 B; Psalms 92:7
In other words, anyone who would want to do us harm will Not be allowed to harm us because they choose to perish ( be destroyed ) instead of repenting - 2 Peter 3:9