Why are we allowed to suffer?

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Now there are those people who value suffering here on Earth and wish to grow and learn from it. However, there are people like me who only wish to live forever happy and not have any depression or suffering in our lives. Why have such people like me who don't value a life of suffering to be here on Earth where there is much suffering that makes our lives miserable? I have suffered from depression and it has taken my life away. So why do I need to be down here when I could of just been born in heaven and stayed there where I could be forever happy and never have to worry about any depression or suffering in my life?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

If Satan challenged God's power or strength God could prove him wrong, but Satan was claiming to be more honest than God.

In a way I believe that Lucifer was more honest that god.

Satan also implied that humans would be better off without God's rulership and guidance.

Because he did not was us to live through control. God only wants control.

 

[psychoslice]

Why are we allowed to suffer?, for the same reason we are allowed to not suffer.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What morality has to do with it? Explain.
Specify what is necessary for someone to suffer because of differences.

It's what one's perception of pain is. One person can suffer from a hang nail while another rejoices in the pain of childbirth. Morality is based on what one percieves as to be right or wrong.

 

[Koldo]

It's what one's perception of pain is. One person can suffer from a hang nail while another rejoices in the pain of childbirth. Morality is based on what one percieves as to be right or wrong.

Mothers experience joy despite the pain, not because of it.
I know what morality is. What I don't understand is what it has to do with our conversation.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Mothers experience joy despite the pain, not because of it.
I know what morality is. What I don't understand is what it has to do with our conversation.

Well, you jumped in in the middle of a conversation I was having with Demonslayer all the way back to post #63 which involved the morality of allowing suffering. We wandered to this point we are at now.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Mothers experience joy despite the pain, not because of it.

So, there are different reactions to pain. That makes it subjective.

 

[Koldo]

So, there are different reactions to pain. That makes it subjective.

That makes 'what' subjective ?

 

[Koldo]

Well, you jumped in in the middle of a conversation I was having with Demonslayer all the way back to post #63 which involved the morality of allowing suffering. We wandered to this point we are at now.

That's not it.
You've said that a difference in perception of right and wrong ( morality ) would lead to such a situation where suffering would emerge.
I want you to explain how so.

 

[idea]

I am asking this question if there really is an eternal blissful afterlife. I personally am agnostic and don't know if there is a God and an afterlife. But if there is an eternal blissful afterlife, then why aren't we all born up there where we can live forever happy and not have any suffering and misery in our lives?

Some people value suffering. But others do not and are completely miserable. They resort to suicide. There is no reason for such people to be here and suffer like that. There is everything wrong with suffering. I have struggled with depression and my life has lost all joy and meaning. You don't realize just how much my life has been taken away from me.

Some people would say that we are here to learn and grow and that suffering is for our personal learning and development. If this is so, then that is no God at all. That is no loving caring God at all. You don't realize the torment that others go through. Many have lost all joy and meaning in their lives and resort to suicide.

There is no reason for this. There is no reason for innocent people to suffer like this. They are not evil people out harming and tormenting others, so there is no need for them to be here and suffer. They should of been born in heaven (the eternal blissful afterlife) and just stayed there for all eternity where they can be forever happy and never have to be suicidal and miserable.

The only reason why I think we are here and suffer is because this universe came about through random chance and that what happens to us in life just simply happens and nothing more. That there is no grand reason for any of it.

Life is a test... no up without down...

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That's not it.
You've said that a difference in perception of right and wrong ( morality ) would lead to such a situation where suffering would emerge.
I want you to explain how so.

No, it's only the perception of what suffering is that makes a person either see or feel suffering under a circumstance where others do not.

 

[Koldo]

No, it's only the perception of what suffering is that makes a person either see or feel suffering under a circumstance where others do not.

In that case, if no situation transpired with an individual that would make him experience suffering then he wouldn't suffer.

EDIT: To clarify, if no situation transpired with an individual that he would perceive as suffering then he wouldn't suffer.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That makes 'what' subjective ?

The reaction to the pain. Some see suffering, some do not.

In that case, if no situation transpired with an individual that would make him experience suffering then he wouldn't suffer.

EDIT: To clarify, if no situation transpired with an individual that he would perceive as suffering then he wouldn't suffer.

Correct. But in the rush to eliminate suffering where is the line drawn. Should we eliminate all hang nails just because one person suffers with one?

 

[Koldo]

The reaction to the pain. Some see suffering, some do not.

What do you mean by 'subjective' on this context ?

Correct. But in the rush to eliminate suffering where is the line drawn. Should we eliminate all hang nails just because one person suffers with one?

We don't have that kind of power.
But as far as eliminating suffering goes, just making sure that a person that would suffer with one never gets to experience it would be enough.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What do you mean by 'subjective' on this context ?

One persons suffering is another persons pleasure.

We don't have that kind of power.
But as far as eliminating suffering goes, just making sure that a person that would suffer with one never gets to experience it would be enough.

This is where suffering as a perception comes into play. It's not necessarily the pain that causes the suffering but the individual experience. For example if you tied me to a chair and made me watch "Friends" reruns I would suffer horribly. Should "Friends" be done away with?

I see suffering as a mental construct based on tangible events that is individual and subjective.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

One persons suffering is another persons pleasure.



This is where suffering as a perception comes into play. It's not necessarily the pain that causes the suffering but the individual experience. For example if you tied me to a chair and made me watch "Friends" reruns I would suffer horribly. Should "Friends" be done away with?

I see suffering as a mental construct based on tangible events that is individual and subjective.

And again I ask, should all of the causes of suffering be abolished then what is a masochist to do. Will you deny one persons pleasure to alleviate anothers suffering?

 

[Koldo]

One persons suffering is another persons pleasure.

And what causes this difference in perception ?
To be more specific, what causes our mind to trigger the feeling of 'suffering' whereas the same might not happen to other people under the same circumstance ?

This is where suffering as a perception comes into play. It's not necessarily the pain that causes the suffering but the individual experience. For example if you tied me to a chair and made me watch "Friends" reruns I would suffer horribly. Should "Friends" be done away with?

I see suffering as a mental construct based on tangible events that is individual and subjective.

There are multiple ways to deal with this. For instance, it is logically possible to make it so you will never watch 'Friends' ( reruns ).

 

[sandy whitelinger]

And what causes this difference in perception ?
To be more specific, what causes our mind to trigger the feeling of 'suffering' whereas the same might not happen to other people under the same circumstance

I would be tempted to say some people are just wimps. Realistically in a universe that is perceived by us through differences it is precisely these differences that make us unique. It seems impossible that two identical things can exist as two separate things in two separate place. No matter how alike they are one would be here and the other would be there and that is a difference ergo it would seem natural that two different people would perceive the same situation differently.

There are multiple ways to deal with this. For instance, it is logically possible to make it so you will never watch 'Friends' ( reruns ).

Frubals to you.

 

[Koldo]

I would be tempted to say some people are just wimps. Realistically in a universe that is perceived by us through differences it is precisely these differences that make us unique. It seems impossible that two identical things can exist as two separate things in two separate place. No matter how alike they are one would be here and the other would be there and that is a difference ergo it would seem natural that two different people would perceive the same situation differently.

Frubals to you.

That doesn't answer my question. The fact that people are different doesn't explain what causes a specific difference.
As I see it, this difference is a direct consequence of nature and nurture, in which case by changing any of them ( or both ) we can influence how an individual turns out.
In other words, it is possible to make it so people don't experience suffering.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No, it's only the perception of what suffering is that makes a person either see or feel suffering under a circumstance where others do not.

Your ^above ^ post reminds me of the man Asaph found at Psalms 73
Asaph's perception was that there are unworthy ones who prosper while others do not - Psalms 73:12-13
Whether under adverse conditions as Job was (Job 2:4-5) or not, Asaph concluded we should draw close to God - Psalms 73:26-28