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Why are we allowed to suffer?

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
It's unpleasant, not wrong. I'm assuming that the working definition for wrong here is not morally good or correct.

So what about war, genocide, famine, crime, disease, disability and cancer? Are they all morally good and correct? The more relevant question is why would a loving God subject his creatures to all this awfulness?
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
So what about war, genocide, famine, crime, disease, disability and cancer? Are they all morally good and correct? The more relevant question is why would a loving God subject his creatures to all this awfulness?
What constitutes suffering for one person does not constitute suffering for another therefore while the things you mentioned may not be morally good or correct it fails to answer my question.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
What constitutes suffering for one person does not constitute suffering for another therefore while the things you mentioned may not be morally good or correct it fails to answer my question.

If someone has control over things like tsunamis, is it morally acceptable to allow them to kill a few hundred thousands people? Would you vote for that person?

Ciao

- viole
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
If someone has control over things like tsunamis, is it morally acceptable to allow them to kill a few hundred thousands people? Would you vote for that person?

Ciao

- viole
This does not explain why suffering is wrong. Death and destruction are different than suffering.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Please try and stick to my question. I am asking about suffering and not torture.

Since suffering is an expected consequence of torturing, I don't understand your remark.

Ok. Let's make the case of a child born without limbs, for instance. Is being X, in control of how children are born, still a person you would vote for, assuming he does not tell you why he let that child came to life without limbs?

Ciao

- viole
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Let's suppose suffering is done away with does that now mean that war, genocide, torture and such like are no longer wrong?

They are all forms of suffering. The question of right and wrong is irrelevant here. The relevant question here is why a loving God would subject his creatures to all this awfulness. Can you answer that question straightforwardly?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Let's suppose suffering is done away with does that now mean that war, genocide, torture and such like are no longer wrong?

Nope. But I do not see any substantial difference between a human torturing a child from a Divinity that allows him to be born blind, for instance. Both can prevent that.

Why do you make a difference?

Ciao

- viole
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
The "answers" are convoluted nonsense.
The fact is, I can make up any story about reality. I could say that the reason why we are here and suffer is because there is a hell and that the energy from hell has our souls trapped here on Earth like a magnet holding our souls down and that the only way to release us from this pull to get to heaven is to live and overcome the hellish suffering in our lives. There are many other stories that people can make up as to why we are all here and suffer. But none of them have any evidence.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I am asking this question if there really is an eternal blissful afterlife. I personally am agnostic and don't know if there is a God and an afterlife. But if there is an eternal blissful afterlife, then why aren't we all born up there where we can live forever happy and not have any suffering and misery in our lives?

The "eternal blissful life" is not after this one, it is here and now. You were born into this.

Some people value suffering. But others do not and are completely miserable. They resort to suicide. There is no reason for such people to be here and suffer like that. There is everything wrong with suffering. I have struggled with depression and my life has lost all joy and meaning. You don't realize just how much my life has been taken away from me.

Some people would say that we are here to learn and grow and that suffering is for our personal learning and development. If this is so, then that is no God at all. That is no loving caring God at all. You don't realize the torment that others go through. Many have lost all joy and meaning in their lives and resort to suicide.

There is no reason for this. There is no reason for innocent people to suffer like this. They are not evil people out harming and tormenting others, so there is no need for them to be here and suffer. They should of been born in heaven (the eternal blissful afterlife) and just stayed there for all eternity where they can be forever happy and never have to be suicidal and miserable.

The only reason why I think we are here and suffer is because this universe came about through random chance and that what happens to us in life just simply happens and nothing more. That there is no grand reason for any of it.

There is reason for suffering. I personally see it as self evident, obvious. It is effect of desire to exist as if this place (my/our world) is without God. It is literally an insane reason, but doesn't mean that there isn't a reason, nor that it doesn't have a sense of appeal. I personally think the appeal is so underestimated, it is challenging to describe. Partially challenging because of how distorted God is in this world (he allegedly is scary, vengeful and punishing), and partially challenging because admitting to wanting what is painted as 'horrible, tragic, hurtful' is fairly taboo. Almost gotta find a strange cult to be honest about such an appeal. When in our shared existence, that strange cult is 'the world as you know it.'

I would liken the appeal to desire for marriage. To be so involved with another person that you wish to share literally everything with them, indefinitely. For earthly marriage, a ceremony of sorts needs to occur for that to be seen as 'marriage has actually occurred between these two.' This is partially, if not primarily the appealing situation. To knowingly be married. Yet, I think we are all aware that 50% of those end in divorce. The other 50% could be eternal blissful life, or perhaps some of that (other half) are persons too self restricted to obtain divorce, and willing to accept ongoing pains and discomforts in that relationship (marriage) as way they are supposed to live.

IMO, the desire to enter into monogamous marriage (or relationship) is actually great analogy. The type of bond that lays claim to 'greatest love' we possibly can achieve. The type of bond that may seek, at times, to exclude all others (including God) for what is the potential to be shared between the two. And yet, is the type of bond we currently understand has a 50% chance of ending in ugly, spiteful separation of the two physical selves. One would wonder where is the appeal in that? But then one just realizes, a fantasy is set up to suggest how it will work out well for this particular couple because they are magically different than the ones that came before them. That their bond is extra special.

Exclusive love, is IMO, why suffering exists. Fortunately, as much of an appeal there is for that type of (distorted) love, it is actually not really what keeps us going, keeps us living here in a place where appearances matter and Creator God is not making Herself known (physically). Our innate ability to Love despite conditions, situation is the path to finding an eternal blissful life. How often and how consistently will likely be in direct proportion to level of perceived suffering. Sometimes, this process could, theoretically, take more than one earthly lifetime to play itself out, accordingly.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The fact is, I can make up any story about reality. I could say that the reason why we are here and suffer is because there is a hell and that the energy from hell has our souls trapped here on Earth like a magnet holding our souls down and that the only way to release us from this pull to get to heaven is to live and overcome the hellish suffering in our lives. There are many other stories that people can make up as to why we are all here and suffer. But none of them have any evidence.

And yet your original premise argument, is full of suppositions.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
There is reason for suffering. ...is effect of desire to exist as if this place (my/our world) is without God.

So suffering is caused by not believing in God? Are you saying that theists don't suffer? Really?
 

Spideymon77

A Smiling Empty Soul
Why do we suffer? What exactly is pain? Why is pain everywhere? Why is happiness everywhere? What are feelings? Why can't we control our feelings? Are feelings just chemicals in our brain? Are we just robots receiving signals?

I can't answer any of those questions so all I can say is that I have suffered from depression, I have gotten through, and I am now an alive and happy person. Remember, Things will get better and just be patient.
 
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